{"id":363,"date":"2026-06-06T11:11:26","date_gmt":"2026-06-06T11:11:26","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/anarchistfaq.org\/anarcho\/?p=363"},"modified":"2026-06-06T11:11:26","modified_gmt":"2026-06-06T11:11:26","slug":"right-wing-libertarians-on-spanish-anarchism-a-reply","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/anarchistfaq.org\/anarcho\/right-wing-libertarians-on-spanish-anarchism-a-reply\/","title":{"rendered":"Right-wing &#8220;libertarians&#8221; on Spanish Anarchism: A reply"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<p>This is a collection of replies to propertarians from the late 1990s about the Spanish Revolution. They are mostly debunking claims and exposing lies. They have been combined into one page and any links updated or removed, otherwise they are the same.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<!--more-->\n\n\n\n<h1 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>Right-wing &#8220;libertarians&#8221; on Spanish Anarchism: A reply<\/strong><\/h1>\n\n\n\n<p>In the mid-1990s, there was an extensive debate (if that is the right word) on various newsgroups about the Spanish Revolution. In the one corner, there were various right-wing &#8220;libertarians&#8221; (most prominently, James A. Donald) who argued that the Spanish anarchists were (to quote him) <em>&#8220;totalitarians&#8221;<\/em> who, apparently almost immediately after the defeat of the fascist uprising in july 1936, organised <em>&#8220;killing fields&#8221;<\/em> and <em>&#8220;a fairly large and permanent organization of mass murder.&#8221;<\/em> Anarchists, in reply, pointed out that this was nonsense, based on extremely selective quoting from accounts of a wave of largely spontaeous murders following the breakdown of the Republican state in the wake of defeat of the army in two-thirds of Spain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The anarchists also noted that these killing, as unfortunate as they were, can only be understood in terms of, firstly, fear of the fascism and as revenge of decades of repression and oppression by the ruling class. For example, unmentioned by James Donald, the Catalan bosses organised <strong>pistoleros<\/strong> against the CNT in the early 1920s, essentially death squads who assassinated union militants. Equally, the often bloody repression of various popular uprisings in the first half of the 1930s also goes unmentioned, as does the mass murder in Franco&#8217;s Spain at the time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Also unmentioned, of course, were two awkward facts for his case. Firsly, that this wave of assassinations peaked immediately after defeat of the fascist uprising and quickly ended. Secondly, that no serious historian has mentioned Donald&#8217;s <em>&#8220;fairly large and permanent organization of mass murder.&#8221;<\/em> This, of course, did not stop him repeating his invention and writing webpages to propagate it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Bryan Caplan, a right-wing &#8220;libertarian&#8221; professor of economics, then produced his <strong>The Anarcho-Statists of Spain<\/strong> a somewhat more sophisticated attack but still a mishmash of selective quoting and dubious assumptions. Significantly, Caplan makes no attempt to suggest that the CNT organised <em>&#8220;killing fields&#8221;<\/em> and <em>&#8220;a fairly large and permanent organization of mass murder&#8221;<\/em>, as James Donald did. This was probably because Caplan knew that such an assertion simply cannot be supported by any real evidence. However, Caplan&#8217;s account is flawed for many other reasons.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>These articles were written at the time of the initial debate and articles by Donald and Caplan. Since then, links to both Caplan&#8217;s and Donald&#8217;s distorted accounts appear occassionally when discussing anarchism or the Spanish revolution (they are linked to in wikipedia for example). As such, it is useful to present them here together. Needless to say, it is doubtful that Donald or Caplan will admit they were wrong and, as such, these essays are not aimed at them. It is aimed at those who seek the facts of what happened in Spain and wish to see what the accounts of Donald and Caplan miss out or distort. As will become clear from reading these replies, both quote selectively and ignore much evidence which refutes their case (often from the same book, sometimes from the very same page they quote).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The articles have been revised slightly, although only with references which were available at the time the articles were originally written.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>On James A. Donald<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><a href=\"#reign\">James A. Donald&#8217;s Reign of Error<\/a><\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p>An account of the strange relationship of James Donald with the facts<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><a href=\"#blood\">What really happened in Spain?<\/a><\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p>A detailed reply to his webpages on the Spanish Revolution. As will be quickly seen, his account is ideologically driven nonsense.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><a href=\"#appendix\">Appendix: James Donald and Noam Chomsky<\/a><\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p>Dan Clore&#8217;s detailed refution of James Donald&#8217;s hatred-fuelled attack on Noam Chomsky, a hatred which has the same low quality of evidence and logic as his attacks on the Spanish Anarchists. This has been added to give readers more material on which to base their evaluation of Donald&#8217;s claims at presenting the facts of what happened in Spain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>On Bryan Caplan<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><a href=\"https:\/\/anarchistfaq.org\/anarcho\/objectivity-and-right-libertarian-scholarship\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Objectivity and Right-Libertarian Scholarship<\/a><\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p>A detailed reply to Caplan&#8217;s apparently more serious and scholarly attack on the Spanish Anarchists. In reality, just as ideologically driven as Donald&#8217;s but which avoids the worse nonsense Donald inflicts on the world.<a id=\"reign\"><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<h1 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><a id=\"reign\"><strong>James A. Donald&#8217;s Reign of Error<\/strong><\/a><\/h1>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Contents<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"#sec0\">Section 0 : Introduction<\/a><br><a href=\"#sec1\">Section 1 : Donald&#8217;s use of quotes<\/a><br><a href=\"#sec2\">Section 2 : Getting dates wrong<\/a><br><a href=\"#sec3\">Section 3 : Ignoring the context<\/a><br><a href=\"#sec4\">Section 4 : Changing the argument after being proved wrong<\/a><br><a href=\"#sec5\">Section 5: The strange case of the May Days<\/a><br><a href=\"#sec6\">Section 6 : What did happen in Aragon?<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><a id=\"sec0\">Introduction<\/a><\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>The debate (if you can call it that) between anarchists and James A. Donald which took place in the mid-1990s on what happened during the Spanish Civil War went going back and forth for some time. In that time, Donald has been continually exposed as speaking nonsense. However, once he decided to call us &#8220;totalitarians,&#8221; it&#8217;s fitting that we provide a summary of the more outlandish things he has claimed. In that way, you can judge for yourself how accurate his assertion is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In the course of this article you will discover a continual pattern of misquotes, quotes out of context, events given the wrong date and used as &#8220;evidence&#8221; for James&#8217;s &#8220;case,&#8221; creative inventions, and downright misinformation. This pattern, better than anything, indicates how poorly his argument stands up.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The fact of the matter is that we <strong>disagreed<\/strong> with James Donald and presented evidence to <strong>prove<\/strong> that his argument was wrong. However, he cannot seem to handle people disagreeing with him, presenting evidence to back up their case, and indicating why his &#8220;evidence&#8221; is nonsense. So, instead of proving our evidence and arguments to be false, Donald merely changes his argument or calls us &#8220;totalitarians.&#8221; This means only one thing, that we are right and he is wrong. This is even more clearly indicated by his &#8220;techniques&#8221; of debate, namely getting dates wrong, quoting out of context, ignoring relevant facts that undermine his &#8220;case,&#8221; getting facts wrong, and finally, slandering people if they continue to <strong>prove<\/strong> that his claims are absurd.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The fact that James does not care about getting facts right, his use of misinformation (for example, real events but dated wrong), and his quoting out of context shows him in his true colours.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The following collection is just a small example of James Donald in action. There are plenty more. I&#8217;ve decided to ignore his pathetic attempts to slander those who dare disagree with him and correct his errors. He does when he is losing the argument, and by two methods. Firsly, as mentioned, general abuse along the lines of calling people &#8220;totalitarians,&#8221; and secondly, quoting people totally out of context.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I hope you all enjoy this short series of examples of James Donald&#8217;s Reign of Error. Its time someone did this, as he has been getting away with this sort of idiocy for far too long.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><a id=\"sec1\">Section 1: Donald&#8217;s use of quotes<\/a><\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>James Donald usually likes to quote from a book called <strong>Blood of Spain: an Oral History of the Spanish Civil War<\/strong> by Ronald Fraser. Here we indicate how he misuses it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<pre class=\"wp-block-preformatted\">&gt; \"This truly revolutionary measure [...] wasn't well received by large\n&gt; numbers of workers, proving, unfortunately that their understanding of\n&gt; the scope of collectivization was very limited.  Only a minority\n&gt; understood that collectivization meant a return to society of what,\n&gt; historically, had been appropriated by the capitalists.\"\n<\/pre>\n\n\n\n<p>Actually James leaves out a very important point in the omitted material indicated by the dots. The person quoted (<strong>not<\/strong> the CNT woodworkers union, as Donald&#8217;s other statements might lead readers to imagine) is Albert Perez-Baro (listed by Fraser as a &#8220;civil-servant&#8221; but with no indication of CNT membership), who actually said:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;This truly revolutionary measure &#8212; <strong>THOUGH RARELY, IF EVER, APPLIED<\/strong> &#8212; wasn&#8217;t well received by large numbers of workers, proving, unfortunately that their understanding of the scope of collectivization was very limited. Only a minority understood that collectivization meant a return to society of what, historically, had been appropriated by the capitalists&#8221;<\/em> [p.232 (my emphasis)]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So why did James deliberately leave out &#8220;&#8211; THOUGH RARELY, IF EVER, APPLIED &#8211;&#8220;? For the same reason he does not indicate the source of the quote in general: namely, that it totally undermines his &#8220;case.&#8221; How dishonest can you get?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>This is not an isolated example, as can be seen from this &#8220;quote&#8221; provided by James Donald from page 349:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<pre class=\"wp-block-preformatted\">&gt;    Forced collectivization was justified [..] by a reasoning closer\n&gt;    to war communism than to libertarian communism [...] \n<\/pre>\n\n\n\n<p>Lets read the full quote. &#8220;obligatory collectivisation was justified, <strong>IN SOME LIBERTARIAN&#8217;S EYES<\/strong>, by a reasoning closer to war communism than to libertarian communism&#8221; (my emphasis).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Funny what a [&#8230;] can hide, eh? How dishonest can you get?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>He uses this &#8220;quote&#8221; to suggest that the CNT supported &#8220;forced collectivisation&#8221; but it indicates <strong>nothing<\/strong> of the kind. So <strong>some<\/strong> libertarians thought that obligatory collectivisation was justified. Now, thats the opinion of <strong>some<\/strong> libertarians, but did it in fact happen? Nope. On page 366, a FAI schoolteacher points out that forced collectivisation <em>&#8220;wasn&#8217;t a widespread problem, because there weren&#8217;t more than twenty or so villages where collectivisation was total and no one was allowed to remain outside&#8230;&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, in other words, less than 5% of collectives were forced, obligatory, ones, meaning that most libertarians opposed forced collectivisation and forced collectivisation <strong>did not take place<\/strong>. So what is James Donald&#8217;s &#8220;case&#8221; amount to? That <strong>some<\/strong> CNT militants thought that forced collectivisation was justified but no such thing actually happened in practice.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In other words, he prefers <strong>opinions<\/strong> over <strong>facts<\/strong>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Here&#8217;s another quote with a crucial point omitted by Donald:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<pre class=\"wp-block-preformatted\">&gt; He [Fraser] quotes Macario Royo, an Aragonese CNT leader who speaks with\n&gt; startling frankness:\n&gt;    To establish libertarian communism means making the revolution.\n&gt;    Revolutions are made by force.  Everything that is imposed by \n&gt;    force has to be maintained by force.  The outcome may be\n&gt;    communism but it is not libertarian.  If it were, it would not\n&gt;    be communist, for the simple reason that the mass of the people \n&gt;    are not communist.\n<\/pre>\n\n\n\n<p>However, the full quote is as follows:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;Revolutions are made by force. Everything that is imposed by force has to be maintained by force. The outcome may be communism but it is not libertarian. If it were, it would not be communist, for the simple reason that the mass of the people are not communist. Libertarian communism could be established only if the majority of the people already supported communism and then started to organise that communism <strong>freely<\/strong>&#8221; [pp. 349-50]<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And Fraser indicates <strong>many, many<\/strong> times that the revolution was a popular one, with ordinary people themselves organising it freely &#8212; for example:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;Very rapidly collectives&#8230;began to spring up. It did not happen on instructions from the CNT leadership &#8212; no more than had the collectives in barcelona&#8221; [p349]<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Or again:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;the pressure [to collectivise] came from the base, from the mass of workers who had been imbued for years with the CNT&#8217;s revoluntary ideas&#8221; [p. 229]<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And, again:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;The CNT representatives had stressed that no one was to be maltreated&#8221;<\/em> [p. 360]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>This means that to use Royo&#8217;s quote to show the authoritarian nature of the revolution gives a <strong>false<\/strong> impression of that happened. In other words, James Donald prefers the <strong>opinion<\/strong> of <strong>one<\/strong> CNT member to the actual <strong>facts<\/strong> of the revolution. The collectives, in other words, were not imposed by CNT force as James implies using this quote &#8211; they were organised by &#8220;the mass of the people.&#8221;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>James also makes statements like these:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<pre class=\"wp-block-preformatted\">&gt; (One of his\n&gt; criticisms of the communists is that they were not tough enough at\n&gt; crushing the peasants: p373)\n<\/pre>\n\n\n\n<p>But when we look at the page, nothing of the kind is indicated. Let&#8217;s examine it. What is James referring to? Could it be the fact that, because the rural economy had collapsed, the Stalinists decided to legalise collectives &#8220;during the current agricultural year&#8221; (thus giving good evidence of the <strong>popular<\/strong> nature of the collectives)?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Looking over the page in question, I realise why James did not quote anything from it. There is nothing there to back up his statement beyond references to the fact that the Stalinist terror against the collectives had totally undermined the economy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In addition, he makes statements like, &#8220;there are many examples of this happening in <strong>Blood of Spain<\/strong>,&#8221; yet he does not even give page numbers. Strange that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Here is just one example. James states that CNT was unable to get any show of support in response to &#8220;numerous similar communist outrages.&#8221;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>When asked to provide evidence, he declines, saying <em>&#8220;If there had been such a show of support, you, or Frazer, would have reported it.&#8221;<\/em> Clearly he is admitting that <strong>no<\/strong> evidence for his statement exists and that he was making it up.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Does this man feel no shame?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><a id=\"sec2\">Section 2 : Getting dates wrong<\/a><\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>James argued that:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<pre class=\"wp-block-preformatted\">&gt; Furthermore Catalonia after November 1936 fits your unusual definition\n&gt; [of totalitarianism] well enough [...] This strongly\n&gt; suggests that anyone who expressed a dissenting viewpoint after\n&gt; November 1936 found himself on a one way trip to a little field in the\n&gt; hills, as so many people did find themselves going.\n<\/pre>\n\n\n\n<p>But <strong>all<\/strong> the examples he uses to back up his statement come from pages 146 to 154 of <strong>Blood of Spain<\/strong>, which relate to the period just after the defeat of the fascist coup in <strong>July<\/strong> 1936. This is <strong>long<\/strong> before November 1936. Donald claims that we, by pointing this out, are <em>&#8220;nitpicking detail on dates and details,&#8221;<\/em> clearly implying that <strong>facts<\/strong> and accurate evidence don&#8217;t matter to him. And he expects us to take him seriously?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In response to our criticism, James did provide what he claimed to be <em>&#8220;an example of terror in spring 1937&#8221;<\/em> to prove his argument about a &#8220;totalitarian&#8221; state in Catalonia from November, 1936. Unfortunately, however, the example he used (p. 359) was from <strong>Aragon,<\/strong> from the <em>&#8220;autumn of 1936.&#8221;<\/em> So, in order to &#8220;prove&#8221; that the CNT created a &#8220;totalitarian&#8221; state in Catalonia in spring, 1937, James presents an example from <strong>Aragon<\/strong> from <strong>autumn, 1936<\/strong>. This is just <strong>one<\/strong> example, btw. There are more.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Or consider the case of food crisis and the May Days, about which Donald claims:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<pre class=\"wp-block-preformatted\">&gt; One factor that presumably had an adverse affect on morale was the\n&gt; food crisis.  Since the Joan Domenech exercised direct command control\n&gt; over food, and people were going hungry, the CNT would undoubtedly be\n&gt; blamed for that hunger, rightly or wrongly.\n<\/pre>\n\n\n\n<p>This interesting theory has <strong>one<\/strong> slight problem with it, namely, it&#8217;s nonsense. Joan Domenech had been <strong>replaced<\/strong> in December 1936 [p. 375]. Joan Comorera (PSUC) replaced him and created a free market in food, meaning that people were hungry because of the free market, <strong>not<\/strong> the CNT.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In a later post he says the following:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<pre class=\"wp-block-preformatted\">&gt; Edmond Valles, page 376, says that people went\n&gt; hungry starting in the winter of 1936, and that food distribution was\n&gt; erratic, capricious, inefficient, and arbitrary. This complaint is\n&gt; consistent with Joan Domenech's own description of his organizational\n&gt; methods on pages 144, 145.\n<\/pre>\n\n\n\n<p>Food production in Catalonia fell by 20% after July 1936 (probably because collectivisation was not widespread) and the city had a large influx of refugees due to the war. To claim that people were doing hungry due to the food supply committtees is false.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Moreover, what Valles <strong>actually<\/strong> said was <em>&#8220;But the communists were no better at organising food supplies. To live on one&#8217;s rations was to go hungry&#8221;<\/em> (p. 376) He then goes on to take about the faults of the system as described by James, in other words James Donald is attributing the PSUC caused problems to the CNT!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It was Comorera who introduced rationing, <strong>not<\/strong> Domenech, Valles is talking about the PSUC run system. As is clear from <strong>Blood of Spain<\/strong>. However, this is not ideologically correct so James Donald decides to <strong>change<\/strong> what Valles was referring to. James bases his &#8220;case&#8221; on Valles who is <strong>clearly<\/strong> talking about what happened under Comorera, <strong>not<\/strong> the supplies committtees.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>How dishonest.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>But James is right &#8212; the food crisis was causing an adverse affect on morale, but it was caused by the PSUC and the free market!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And as for Joan Domenech exercising &#8220;direct command control&#8221; of the food supplies, this is false. Borkenau states: <em>&#8220;Comorera&#8230; did not substitute for the chaotic bread committees a centralised administation.&#8221;<\/em> [<strong>The Spanish Cockpit<\/strong>, p.184]. So much for Domenech&#8217;s &#8220;direct command control&#8221;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Donald uses examples of incidents reported in Fraser&#8217;s a book but ignores when and where they happened. This is <strong>not<\/strong> a mistake, as he has <strong>continually<\/strong> followed this procedure from the start. And he wants us to take him seriously?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><a id=\"sec3\">Section 3: Ignoring the context<\/a><\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>James Donald has an amazing ability to ignore the context of the passages he quotes as well as any evidence which may place his &#8220;case&#8221; in doubt from the same sections.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>For example:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<pre class=\"wp-block-preformatted\">&gt; Random flipping through the chapter on Barcelona produces the\n&gt; following little gem:  One of the activists reports:  (page 146)  \n&gt; \n&gt;    Day after day we found ourselves on the committee repeating \n&gt;    \"why these assassinations?\" [...] A man was killed because his\n&gt;    sister was a nun. [...] They called a man a fascist simply \n&gt;    because he went to mass.  President Companys said \"you are \n&gt;    drowning the revolution in blood\"  [...] \"Tell Companys not \n&gt;    to come here again\" Durrutti said to me and Tarradelas.   If \n&gt;    he does I will fill him full of bullet holes.\n<\/pre>\n\n\n\n<p>Before continuing, it should be noted that the third [&#8230;] actually says a bit more than James suggests. here is the <strong>real<\/strong> quote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;President Companys told them they were drowning the revolution in blood. &#8216;We shall lose the war for this reason.&#8217; The libertarians went pale. When Companys from time to time put in an appearance at the committee, we of his party stood up; the communists half rose, the libertarians remained stolidly seated. &#8216;Tell Companys not to come here again,&#8217; Durruti said to me and Tarredellas. &#8216;If he does, I&#8217;ll fill him full of bullets&#8230;'&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Notice how James <strong>changes<\/strong> the quote to suggest that Companys remark caused Durruti&#8217;s threat, while in fact nothing of the kind is actually stated. It <strong>could<\/strong> have been, I agree, but there is no evidence that it was. But what <strong>is<\/strong> dishonest is James Donald changing the quote in order to explicitly suggest that it did.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>How dishonest can you get? Does the truth mean <strong>nothing<\/strong> to James Donald that he is happy to change quotes in order to present his &#8220;case&#8221;?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Moving on&#8230;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<pre class=\"wp-block-preformatted\">&gt; This discouraged debate about the methods the \"libertarians\" used to\n&gt; enforce the revolution.\n<\/pre>\n\n\n\n<p>Actually, the quote above is not from the chapter on &#8220;Barcelona&#8221; but from the section on what happened in Barcelona immediately after the Fascist uprising had been put down. James &#8220;forgets&#8221; to mention this fact, thus implying that the assassinations were occuring in a normal city.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>James uses this section of the book to imply that the CNT leadership was organising these assassinations. However, the facts are quite different. According to the eyewitness quoted above, <em>&#8220;The libertarians controlled all the most important &#8216;secretariats&#8217; &#8212; but in reality power lay still in the streets&#8221;<\/em> [<strong>Blood of Spain<\/strong>, p. 143]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>As another eyewitness points out:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;There was a deep, very deep wave of popular fury as a result of the military uprising which followed on so many years of oppression and provocation&#8221;<\/em> [p . 151]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It seems that James expects a whole population, which had been subject to much repression over the previous 20 years, <strong>not<\/strong> to take revenge on those who had oppressed them. He must think people are angels. However, those of us with a firmer grasp of human nature realise that after an attempted fascist coup and 20 years of repression, people are going to do nasty things, things that we are opposed to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>All this clearly indicates that the CNT-FAI was <strong>powerless<\/strong> to stop the bloodshed initially and were <strong>not<\/strong> the source of the terrible acts happening in Barcelona in those days. The CNT and FAI did try to stop it. As Fraser points out, the CNT and FAI both opposed assassinations. Page 149, <em>&#8220;leading CNT militants, like Joan Peiro, fulminated openly against such actions&#8221;<\/em> and <em>&#8220;both the CNT and FAI issued statements categorically condemning assassinations&#8221;<\/em> The FAI stated: <em>&#8220;we must put an end to these excesses.&#8221;<\/em> In fact, the CNT-FAI acted to stop assassinations. To quote Fraser, <em>&#8220;Anyone proven to have infringed people&#8217;s rights would be shot &#8212; a threat which was carried out when some anarcho-syndicalist militants were executed.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And let&#8217;s not forget that Fraser states that <em>&#8220;it should be noted that in Barcelona and elsewhere the FAI was automatically blamed for assassinations and crimes&#8221;<\/em> [p. 148] Seems like James is doing the same thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Lastly, this quote should indicate <strong>exactly<\/strong> how James works and how important context is:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<pre class=\"wp-block-preformatted\">&gt; He [Eduardo Pons Prades, p. 223] also reports unanimous re-elections [in\n&gt; the woodworkers union]. \n<\/pre>\n\n\n\n<p>However, in <strong>reality<\/strong> we find that Prades also reports <strong>non<\/strong>-unanimous elections. He indicates that <em>&#8220;despite these objections, the first Annual General Meeting renewed ALMOST all the posts unanimously&#8221;<\/em> [my emphasis, p. 223]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Could it be that the workers in the industry thought that <em>&#8220;socialisation was working well&#8221;<\/em> [p. 223] and they had no call not to re-elect the people occupying the posts in question? James is aware of the correct quote, but decides to misrepresent it and rip it from its context, following his usual custom.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><a id=\"sec4\">Section 4: Changing the argument after being proved wrong<\/a><\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>Usually James discovers that his statements cannot be backed up with facts, and indeed, his statements are often <strong>directly<\/strong> the opposite of what the evidence suggests. Here is just one example of his getting facts <strong>totally<\/strong> wrong and then acting like nothing happened.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>According to Donald:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<pre class=\"wp-block-preformatted\">&gt; The woodworkers union (which coercively closed down the small, mostly\n&gt; non unionized woodworking shops and herded everyone into one big shop)\n<\/pre>\n\n\n\n<p>But according to Fraser, <em>&#8220;A union delegate would go round the small shops, point out to the workers that the conditions were unhealthy and dangerous, that the revolution was changing all this, and secure their agreement to close down and move to the union-built Double-X and the 33 EU&#8221;<\/em> [p.222]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>This is <strong>not<\/strong> &#8220;coercive,&#8221; which means that Donald deliberately stated the opposite of the facts reported in the book from which he was quoting. When the facts were pointed out, he just <strong>changed<\/strong> his argument! Suddenly he did not <strong>really<\/strong> mean what he said. No, he was talking about <em>&#8220;the immediately preceding paragraph.&#8221;<\/em> However, a look at that paragraph shows that there is <strong>no<\/strong> reference to closing down any shops. This clearly indicates that James was actually refering to the above quote, but when it was proved he was drawing nonsensical inferences from it, he tried to claim that he wasn&#8217;t &#8220;really&#8221; talking about it at all.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And he expects us to take him seriously.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><a id=\"sec5\">Section 5: The strange case of the May Days<\/a><\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>James Donald&#8217;s &#8220;case&#8221; has one strange loophole in it, namely the May Days in Barcelona in 1937. He tries to argue that this was not a popular revolt. To admit to it being a popular revolt means admitting that the mass of Barcelona workers went on the streets to defend a &#8220;totalitarian&#8221; state, which is hardly likely. James knows this and so attempts to rewrite history.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>First there is the strange case of the assault guards during the May Days events. James originally claimed:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<pre class=\"wp-block-preformatted\">&gt; The uprising was quelled by five thousand guards\n<\/pre>\n\n\n\n<p>But the facts are different. Lets see what Fraser says about these 5,000 guards: <em>&#8220;By Friday, the city was almost back to normal: 5,000 assault guards arrived from Valencia and took over &#8216;like a conquering army'&#8221;<\/em> [p.382]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The assult guards arrived <strong>after<\/strong> the workers went back to work and played <strong>no<\/strong> part in the May events. Therefore, James was claiming that the revolt was &#8220;quelled&#8221; by troops that did not arrive until it was over. Strangely, when we pointed this out, he never mentioned it again, although this was a <strong>key<\/strong> aspect of his original argument.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Moving on, James claims that <em>&#8220;the mass of the workers failed to mobilize&#8221;<\/em> and that<em>&#8220;the masses looked on apathetically.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>However, according to Fraser, <em>&#8220;By dawn on Tuesday, the barricades had gone up. With the exception of the area around the Generalitat, CNT and POUM workers held almost the whole city&#8221;<\/em> [p. 378]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Faced with this obvious fact, James has to &#8220;explain&#8221; it, so he claims that:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<pre class=\"wp-block-preformatted\">&gt; CNT controlled the militia patrols (cops).  Thus they started out\n&gt; holding the whole city without having to fight for it.  \n<\/pre>\n\n\n\n<p>However, there is two slight problems with this &#8220;theory.&#8221; Firsly, according to Frazer, these patrols did not exist at the time in question. <em>&#8220;Within six months [of the CNT joining the government in September 1936] the Esquerra republicans and PSUC felt strong enough to order the dissolution of the armed workers&#8217; patrols&#8221;<\/em> [p. 376]. Secondly, even at the time these patrols did exist, they had only 325 CNT members in them [p. 150]. So even if James were correct in his statement about when the patrols existed, he would be claiming that 325 people took over a whole city and imposed a general strike!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Instead of admitting the obvious, namely massive support for the CNT and the Revolution along with a rank-and-file revolt in defense of both these things, James Donald invents a &#8220;theory&#8221; which must be one of the most stupid ever hatched from the brain of an &#8220;anarcho&#8221;-capitalist.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Having nowhere else to turn, James Donald claims that <strong>Blood of Spain<\/strong> refers to &#8220;middle-level militants&#8221; of the CNT and that these did the fighting, not the rank and file. He quotes the following to &#8220;prove&#8221; his &#8220;case&#8221;:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<pre class=\"wp-block-preformatted\">&gt; Blood of Spain, page 381, Frazer explaining the decision to make war:\n&gt; \n&gt;    \"What carried real weight in the CNT was the neighborhood \n&gt;     defense committees, the middle-level militants who had made \n&gt;     the revolution by taking over factories and workplaces in \n&gt;     the early days, and who felt that their revolution was \n&gt;     being betrayed.\"\n<\/pre>\n\n\n\n<p>Yes, <strong>Blood of Spain<\/strong> on that page <strong>does<\/strong> refer to these militants, but it <strong>does not<\/strong> say that they started or did the fighting. What Fraser actually says is:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;A small anarchist organisation, the Friends of Durruti, came out openly against the CNT leaders, calling for a revolutionary junta, with the POUM&#8217;s participation because the party had come out on the worker&#8217;s side. Until then, its relations with the POUM had been notably cool. The call found little echo. What carried real weight in the CNT was the neighborhood defense committees, the middle-level militants who had made the revolution by taking over factories and workplaces in the first days, and who felt that their revolution was being betrayed.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>As can be seen, Fraser is referring to what happened <strong>during<\/strong> the May Days, not to who started the fighting or took part in it. So according to James Donald, the &#8220;middle-level militants&#8221; started and took part in the fighting. <strong>Wrong<\/strong>, the mass of the population took part (as indicated above), and the initial call for action was done by the &#8220;Friends of Durruti&#8221; who <em>&#8220;mobilized the masses&#8221;<\/em> [p. 381]. &#8220;The masses&#8221; then took over the city.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Elsewhere, the fact that the mass of worker took part in the May Days is clear, as is their support for the CNT. Thus a Barcelona CNT leader is quoted as saying, <em>&#8220;their members have &#8216;shown their teeth'&#8221;<\/em> [p.381]. Similarly, a POUM member thought that <em>&#8220;The POUM lacked political credibility &#8230;to swing over the mass of CNT workers from their own organisation and leadership&#8221;<\/em> [p.382]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I would also add the following quote: <em>&#8220;The POUM leader explained that this was a moment of rupture: the working class had risen, held arms. The movement, which had started spontaneously, must either go forwards or back&#8221;<\/em> [p. 380)] And let&#8217;s not forget that Orwell, in <strong>Homage to Catalonia<\/strong>, reports a general strike and the residents of whole streets building barricades.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It is at this point that James stops arguing. Why? Simply because his &#8220;case&#8221; falls apart in the cold light of reality. The simple fact is that the May Days of 1937 was a popular revolt of the CNT membership in support of their revolution, with the rank and file taking the initiative.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>To sum up, James Donald&#8217;s lack of success in explaining the May Days of 1937 indicates that his argument that the CNT created a &#8220;totalitarian&#8221; state by that date is simply false. If it is not false, he has to explain why an oppressed population rose up in support of the organisation that was&#8221; repressing&#8221; them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The May Days of 1937 is the best evidence possible that the CNT did not create a &#8220;totalitarian&#8221; state. From James Donald&#8217;s sad attempts to rewrite history in an effort to &#8220;explain&#8221; these events, it is clear that his case does not hold water.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><a id=\"sec6\">Section 6 : What did happen in Aragon?<\/a><\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>James A. Donald claims that the CNT &#8220;enserfed&#8221; the peasants of Aragon and says the following:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<pre class=\"wp-block-preformatted\">&gt; In \"Blood of Spain\" by Ronald Frazer on page 367 [...] armed\n&gt; guards on the roads to prevent the enserfed former peasants\n&gt; from fleeing: [...]\n<\/pre>\n\n\n\n<p>This is not a quote from &#8220;Blood of Spain&#8221;, btw. What one of the two people does say is that &#8220;the committee had guards posted on the roads&#8221; (p. 368) and that she could not leave the dictatorship in her village. Frazer also points out that, for <em>&#8220;extraneous reasons&#8221;<\/em> he could not <em>&#8220;talk to supporters and detractors of the collectives&#8230; in the Angues collective&#8230; The testimony of Fernando ARAGON and his wife &#8211; a view of the inherent undemocratic dangers contained within the collectivisation experiment &#8211; must stand on its own&#8221;<\/em> (p. 369)<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It should be pointed out that the other 3 collectives in his book were nothing like Aragon&#8217;s one. According to one member of the Beceite collectives, <em>&#8220;it was marvellous&#8230;to live in a collective, a free society where one could say what one thought, where if the village committee seemed unsatisfactory one could say. The committee took no big decisions without calling the whole village together in a general assembly. All this was wonderful&#8221;<\/em> [p. 288]. This was in Aragon, along with the two other democratic collectives Frazer talks about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Or how about another Aragon collective, in which <em>&#8220;Once the work groups were established on a friendly basis and worked their own lands, everyone got on well enough, he recalled. There was no need for coercion, no need for discipline and punishment&#8230;. A collective wasn&#8217;t a bad idea at all&#8221;<\/em> [p. 360]. This collective, like 95% of the 450 collectives, was voluntary, <em>&#8220;I couldn&#8217;t oblige him to join; we weren&#8217;t living under a dictatorship&#8221;<\/em> [p. 362]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, to recap, James Donald claims that the CNT &#8220;enserfed&#8221; the peasants. If the collectives were formed by anarchist &#8220;terror&#8221; why were 95% of the collectives in Aragon voluntary? Why did only 70% of the population in Aragon take part? Why were they run by mass assemblies and elected committees? Why was collectivisation less widespread in Catalonia? Why did they exist in areas outside Catalonia and Aragon?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It seems strange that James is happy to ignore the overall picture and instead concentrate on <strong>one<\/strong> collective. As Frazer notes, the testimonies of the eye-witnesses about this collective was not checked against other people&#8217;s. So, from this <strong>one<\/strong> example, James Donald claims that this is &#8220;typical&#8221; of what happened in Aragon. However, as can be seen, this is <strong>false.<\/strong> As James himself knows.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>B. Bolloten, <strong>The Spanish Civil War<\/strong> states the following: <em>&#8220;But in spite of the cleavages between doctrine and practice that plagued the Spanish Anarchists whenever they collided with the realities of power, it cannot be overemphasized that notwithstanding the many instances of coercion and violence, the revolution of July 1936 distinguished itself from all others by the generally spontaneous and far-reaching character of its collectivist movement and by its promise of moral and spiritual renewal. Nothing like this spontaneous movement had ever occurred before&#8221;<\/em> [p. 78]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, what does James Donald&#8217;s case come down to? The testimony of <strong>two<\/strong> people from <strong>one<\/strong> collective. The actual evidence from Catalonia and Aragon indicates that forced collectivisation was <strong>not<\/strong> widespread and the collectives had popular support.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, did the CNT-FAI &#8220;enserf&#8221; the peasants? Nope, as the evidence indicates the collectives were mostly spontaneous created, were almost always voluntary and run by mass assemblies and elected committees.<a id=\"blood\"><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<h1 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><a id=\"blood\"><strong>What really happened in Spain?<\/strong><\/a><\/h1>\n\n\n\n<p>This is a summary of the debate between anarchists and James Donald on what happened during the Spanish Revolution of 1936 and 1937. Contained in this file is a summary of James Donald&#8217;s many postings on the subject during that debate. This document exposes his lack of evidence and the weakness of his case (called <a href=\"#reign\">James Donald&#8217;s Reign of Error<\/a> for reasons that soon become apparent). In addition, there are replies to the argument he presents on his web-page on the subject (called <strong>What really happened in Catalonia<\/strong>).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>What strikes any objective reader how weak James&#8217; case is. George Orwell, in a book review, wrote that <em>&#8220;Mr Arnold Lunn writes as a supporter of General Franco and believes life in &#8216;Red&#8217; Spain (which he has not visited) to be one continuous massacre.&#8221;<\/em> [<strong>Time and Tide<\/strong>, 11th December, 1937] Orwell pointed out that, from personal experience, this was not the case. Much the same could be said of James Donald (although he had not expressed support for Franco, unlike Pinochet). James, for ideological reasons, wants to believe that Republican Spain was not only one continuous massacre, but that it was centrally planned and organised by the CNT, who aimed for a totalitarian state and achieved one by November 1936. The facts, as will become pretty clear pretty quickly, fail to support his hopes. That, of course, does not stop him writing his accounts hoping to influence those who knowledge of the facts are even worse than his own.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Now, no one can blame him for being angry when people are murdered. However, it soon becomes clear that this anger is more driven by a hatred of all forms of socialism than a concern about assassinations (as can be seen from his support for Pinochet&#8217;s coup, for example). Equally evident is his utter unwillingness to present any form of social or political context, a desire not to look more deeply into the reasons why these things happen. If he did, he would have had to recount the years of repression suffered by the Spanish workers and peasants, the organising of death squads by Catalan bosses to assassinate union militants in the 1920s, the bloody suppression of popular revolts in the 1930s, the reality of fascist Italy and Germany and what would be expected if the fascists won (as proved to be the case, as state terrorism and mass murder was a way of life in the Nationalist Zone).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Any objective account of the period would note all this, rather than selectively quote from books to prove an assertion about the CNT-FAI which no serious historian has ever raised and which there is more than enough evidence to refute. Evidence which James is aware of but prefers to ignore and keep his readers ignorant of.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>We will take each statement of James in turn:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>First, his claims of &#8220;terror in Catalonia&#8221; are discussed <a href=\"#terror\">here<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>He then goes on to discuss that &#8220;Catalonia was not anarchist&#8221; and that it swiftly &#8220;ceased to be democratic.&#8221; The first point is discussed <a href=\"#govern\">here<\/a> and the second, <a href=\"#demo\">here.<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Donald attempts to show that <em>&#8220;As usual, Catalonia demonstrated once again the contradiction between liberty and socialism, with the usual rivers of blood that accompany such demonstrations&#8221;<\/em> and claims that there was &#8220;capitalism in Catalonia.&#8221; Ironically enough, his examples of &#8220;capitalism in action&#8221; come from the time of his &#8220;terror&#8221; examples, namely between July and November of 1936.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>He then goes on to talk about serfdom in Catalonia and that charge is answered <a href=\"#serf\">here.<\/a> His account of &#8220;capitalism in Catalonia&#8221; is discussed <a href=\"#capital\">here<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>He even goes so far as to quote both Malatesta and Bakunin, without mentioning that they were both (in his terms) &#8220;anarcho-socialists&#8221; (or that anarchism has always been socialist, so that &#8220;anarcho-socialism&#8221; is redundant).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>James then goes on to claim that the anarchists in Catalonia enforced &#8220;actually existing socialism&#8221; on the workers. He calls this &#8220;bait and switch in Catalonia&#8221; and this is discussed <a href=\"#bait\">here.<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Lastly, he claims that <em>&#8220;in Catalonia there was no separation between executive and judiciary. Often the same person with whom you negotiated your pay also decided what the law was, who was guilty, and what the punishment would be. This made negotiations at best rather ominous.&#8221;<\/em> This is discussed <a href=\"#incent\">here<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>We do not expect to convince James Donald that he is wrong. What this web-page is is an attempt to indicate to interested parties that his version of what happened during the Spanish Revolution is <strong>false<\/strong> and that he is not interested in presenting anything like a truthful account.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The final judgment about what happened is up to you, the reader.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a id=\"terror\"><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><a id=\"terror\">Terror in Catalonia<\/a><\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>James Donald claims he is presenting a <em>&#8220;collection of horrors committed by the &#8220;anarcho&#8221; socialists of Catalonia: horror stories from various eyewitnesses.&#8221;<\/em> He then goes on to state that <em>&#8220;in this article I make little attempt to put these little vignettes into a coherent story.&#8221;<\/em> However, as we will see, this story is distinctly <strong>false<\/strong>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>He begins by quoting from Burnett Bolloten&#8217;s book, <strong>The Grand Camouflage<\/strong>, page 41, which quotes Diego Abad de Santillan saying that <em>&#8220;It is possible our victory resulted in the death by violence of four or five thousand inhabitants of Catalonia who were listed as rightists and were linked to political or ecclesiastical reaction.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>James then says the following, <em>&#8220;Compare this with Pinochet, who murdered three thousand people out of a vastly larger population according to the Rettig Report on Human Rights.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Unfortunately for James Donald, this is a very false comparsion. Pinochet organised a military coup against a democractically re-elected government. This means that the murders were organised by the military under orders. The murders in Catalonia occured in response to a fascist coup when the whole population of Catalonia was armed by the trade unions. In other words, it was <strong>not<\/strong> organised by the anarchists or the CNT.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>According to a non-anarchist eye-witness:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;The libertarians controlled all the most important &#8216;secretariats&#8217; &#8212; but in reality power lay still in the streets&#8221;<\/em> [<strong>Blood of Spain<\/strong>, p. 143]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Another states that <em>&#8220;There was a deep, very deep wave of popular fury as a result of the military uprising which followed on so many years of oppression and provocation.&#8221;<\/em> [<strong>Op. Cit.<\/strong>,p . 151]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>James Donald tries to appear &#8220;objective&#8221; and asks, <em>&#8220;OK, there was terror on a vast scale. Next question. Who did it? Was it an unfortunate consequence of convicts getting out of jail and the breakdown of order, or was it systematically planned to terrorize the population into submission?&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>This is a fair question. But James does not give it a fair answer. A fair answer would include this quote from a Basque Nationalist, a Republican and a Catholic, quoted early by Bolloten in his book <strong>The Spanish Civil War<\/strong>:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;Blood, a great deal of innocent blood was shed on both sides. . . .But the most radical difference as far as the Republican zone was concerned &#8212; which does not justify, but at least explains, the excesses &#8212; lies in the very fact of the [military] insurrection. The army, almost the entire secret police, the administration of justice, whatever police forces there were, whose duty it was to maintain order, revolted, leaving the legal government defendless. The latter was compelled to arm the people, the jails were opened to release friendly political prisoners, and the common-law criminals who came out with them acted on their own account. Furthermore, with the stirring up of the lower depths of society, the malefactors that exist in every city, in every nation, came to the surface, and found an easy field for their work. . .Is it surprising that during the first days of the revolt these uncontrolled elements dispensed justice in a rude and elementary fashion, the justice of men who had suffered and had been molded in an atmosphere of hatred? All this does not justify the crimes committed in the Republican zone, but it readily explains them.&#8221;<\/em> [p. 53]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Diego Abad de Santillan&#8217;s quote that James uses above starts, <em>&#8220;We do not wish to deny that the nineteenth of July brought with it an overflowing of passions and abuses,&#8221;<\/em> indicating that his figure of 4 to 5 thousand refers to this period, when <em>&#8220;power lay in the streets.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>James then goes on to claim that <em>&#8220;the testimony of those who were afraid indicates that they primarily expected and feared organized large scale terror, rather than random violence,&#8221;<\/em> while in fact not producing any evidence that this was the case. He does quote from <strong>Blood of Spain<\/strong> by Ronald Fraser in &#8220;support&#8221; of his &#8220;case,&#8221; but his eyewitness is someone who was 13 years old at the time and refers to an unnamed workers&#8217; patrol operating at an unknown time. The quote is from the section &#8220;Barcelona: The Revolution,&#8221; which describes what happened immediately after July 19. Thus the eyewitness is referring to events from around this period, when, as quoted above, <em>&#8220;power lay on the streets.&#8221;<\/em> (It could be interpreted to refer to a slightly later time, because of a reference to <em>&#8220;people flocking to join the UGT.&#8221;<\/em> However, Frazer places the narrative in the middle of other events from just after July 19th, thus indicating that, in his view, it most likely occured during this time).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, James claimed above that after July 19th, the CNT organised &#8220;mass terror,&#8221; but he presents no evidence that the CNT actually did any such thing. His example does not indicate that the CNT was involved or that the patrol in question was working under direct orders from the CNT. As indicated below, the CNT did oppose assassinations and acted to stop them. As evidence of CNT &#8220;killing fields,&#8221; James&#8217;s argument fails completely.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>He goes on and says <em>&#8220;Obviously this was not individuals acting: Individuals and small groups do not set up killing fields, and they do not murder people on a regular and predictable schedule, and they do not have specialization of labor in production of murder.&#8221;<\/em> But his example does not prove that the CNT was involved in the killing, nor especially that it organized any &#8220;killing fields.&#8221; It does not even indicate that the persons involved had a trial or who they were. In addition, it is from a time when &#8220;power lay on the streets,&#8221; meaning that the CNT could not control what was happening in Barcelona. In other words, his evidence is extremely weak.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>James then goes on to claim that <em>&#8220;Furthermore, rather than violence ending when the CNT took control, we see the reverse, escalating violence once power was firmly consolidated.&#8221;<\/em> The false premise in this argument is that the CNT did not &#8220;take control&#8221; &#8212; it was cooperating with other antifascist parties and groups in the &#8220;Central Committee of Anti-Fascist Militias,&#8221; a body which had been disbanded by the end of September. The CNT then joined the Popular Front government as a minority.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So what are his examples of &#8220;escalating violence&#8221;? He quotes the following as &#8220;proof&#8221;:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Blood of Spain<\/strong> page 140 Joan Domenech, CNT member speaking:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;I said &#8220;You are the employers [&#8230;] right now if we felt like it we could load you into a lorry and that would be the end of it.&#8221; You should have seen their backsides wriggling on the chairs!&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>However, this threat was <strong>not carried out<\/strong> and is from the period when Barcelona was <em>&#8220;in full spate of Revolution&#8221;<\/em>. So James Donald uses an example which occurred just after July 19th (when &#8220;power lay on the streets&#8221;), which did not actually involve violence, as an example of &#8220;escalating violence&#8221;! What logic!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>He then makes the following statement: <em>&#8220;The reference to a lorry, similar to Stalin&#8217;s reference to boxcars, again indicates specialization of labor in the mass production of murder, not spontaneous violent action by small groups.&#8221;<\/em> But his evidence of these lorries used for his &#8220;mass production of murder&#8221; actually existing is nowhere to be seen! All we have is a threat, by one member of the CNT, which was not carried out. Where is the evidence that the CNT actually did operate a &#8220;mass production of murder&#8221;? None is supplied and no historian mentions this &#8220;specialisation of labour in the mass production of murder.&#8221;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>What does FAI leading-light Juan Garcia Oliver have to say about the terror in Catalonia? He agrees with the Basque Nationalist quoted above. He states that <em>&#8220;Everyone created his own justice and administered it himself. Some used to call this &#8216;taking someone for a ride,&#8217; but I maintain it was justice administered directly by the people in the complete absence of the regular judicial bodies.&#8221;<\/em>[<strong>The Spanish Civil War<\/strong>, p. 50]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The amazing thing is that neither Fraser nor Bolloten mention these &#8220;killing fields&#8221; alleged by James to have been created by the CNT. Nor does either author mention &#8220;the mass production of murder&#8221; that James says existed. He himself does not present any evidence for their existence. (Oh, yes, he does quote a threat by one CNT member which was not carried out, but that is not evidence of any &#8220;killing fields.&#8221;) How strange that two historians do not mention these &#8220;killing fields&#8221; that James Donald claims existed! Surely if the CNT-FAI in Catalonia had managed to organise a system similar to Stalin&#8217;s (in a space of a few days or, at most, weeks!) some credible historian would have mentioned it? That none do explains why Donald has to invent &#8220;evidence&#8221; for such a system by unjustifiable extrapolation from one person&#8217;s comments.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In order to &#8220;prove&#8221; his case in light of the non-existent evidence, he then quotes Juan Andrade of the POUM executive committee, who states in <strong>Blood of Spain<\/strong> page 183 that:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;I don&#8217;t believe that this alone was the major cause of the PSUC&#8217;s growth. The CNT was the reason. The latter terrorized so many people that in reaction they came to consider the communists as the party of order.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Notice that Andrade did not say &#8220;murder so many people.&#8221; More important, though, is the fact that the reason why the PSUC grew in size was because it opposed the revolution and the collectives created during it. Because the Communists would protect their property, property owners turned to them. Simple as that. The &#8220;terror&#8221; was the result of arming an oppressed population, many of whom were in the CNT and FAI. As Frazer summarises, <em>&#8220;the revolutionary necessity of assuring the rearguard had been muddied by personal bloodletting, vendettas and arbitrary slayings.&#8221;<\/em> [p. 177]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Following on from this, James quotes Juan Miravitlles, an Esquerra representative on the militia committee as follows:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;Day after day we found ourselves on the committee repeating &#8220;why these assassinations?&#8221; [&#8230;] A man was killed because his sister was a nun. [&#8230;] They called a man a fascist simply because he went to mass. President Companys said &#8220;you are drowning the revolution in blood&#8221; [&#8230;] &#8220;Tell Companys not to come here again&#8221; Durrutti said to me and Tarradelas. If he does I will fill him full of bullet holes.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>However, before discussing this quote from the period after July 19th (the time when Miravitlles says the &#8220;power lay in the streets&#8221;), we have to point out that James Donald gets his quote wrong. The actual quote is as follows:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;President Companys told them they were drowning the revolution in blood. &#8216;We shall lose the war for this reason.&#8217; The libertarians went pale. When Companys from time to time put in an appearance at the committee, we of his party stood up; the communists half rose, the libertarians remained stolidly seated. &#8216;Tell Companys not to come here again,&#8217; Durruti said to me and Tarredellas. &#8216;If he does, I&#8217;ll fill him full of bullets&#8230;'&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Notice how James <strong>changes<\/strong> the quote to suggest that Companys remark caused Durruti&#8217;s threat, while in fact nothing of the kind is actually stated. It <strong>could<\/strong> have been, we agree, but there is no evidence that it was. But what <strong>is<\/strong> dishonest is James Donald changing the quote in order to explicitly suggest that it did.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>James Donald then says the following, <em>&#8220;Durutti was arguably the most powerful military commander in the CNT&#8221;.<\/em> Very true, but this only happened after he left for the front on July 24th, 1936, at the head of the Durruti Column. In other words, the event referred to above must have occured sometime between July 20th and July 24th, as Durruti was at the front after that. During this period, and for sometime after, &#8220;power lay in the streets&#8221; and not with the CNT-FAI. It should also be noted that Durruti did not carry out his threat.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>James Donald then states that <em>&#8220;Note that president Companys said &#8220;you are drowning the revolution in blood,&#8221; not &#8220;random street people are drowning the revolution in Blood&#8221;, which indicates he saw the terror as being centrally directed and organized.&#8221;<\/em> Obviously, however, the quote does not suggest any such thing, and in fact, Fraser and Bolloten do not mention any such thing. According to Bolloten, <em>&#8220;during the height of the Revolution&#8221;<\/em> (i.e. the period being discussed here), there was <em>&#8220;spontaneous, undirected terror of the CNT and FAI,&#8221;<\/em> which he constrasts with <em>&#8220;the more sophisticated, centrally directed, and, hence, more fearful terror of the Communists,&#8221;<\/em> which occurred after May 1937. [<strong>The Spanish Civil War<\/strong>, p.498] This clearly indicates that the CNT and FAI did not &#8220;centrally direct&#8221; or &#8220;organise&#8221; mass murder or terror at all. In fact, it indicates that the &#8220;undirected terror&#8221; was by individuals who belonged to anarchist organizations acting on their own.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>According to Fraser, <em>&#8220;it should be noted that in Barcelona and elsewhere the FAI was automatically blamed for assassinations and crimes&#8221;<\/em> [p. 148] It should also be noted that the CNT and FAI both opposed assassinations. [p. 149] <em>&#8220;leading CNT militants, like Joan Peiro, fulminated openly against such actions.&#8221;<\/em> and <em>&#8220;both the CNT and FAI issued statements categorically condemning assassinations.&#8221;<\/em> The FAI stated: <em>&#8220;we must put an end to these excesses.&#8221;<\/em> In fact, the CNT-FAI acted to stop assassinations. To quote Fraser, <em>&#8220;Anyone proven to have infringed people&#8217;s rights would be shot &#8212; a threat which was carried out when some anarcho-syndicalist militants were executed.&#8221;<\/em> Unsurprisingly, then, as Fraser notes, the <em>&#8220;republican government (along with <strong>all<\/strong> political parties and trade unions) condemned the assassinations and, as its power increased, brought them under control.&#8221;<\/em> [p. 170]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>But James Donald ignores this evidence, stating that <em>&#8220;The leaders on the militia committee claimed that the worker patrols were doing it on their own initiative, but since the patrols accused were organized and officially authorized by the CNT, this explanation fails to inspire confidence, regardless of whether it is true or false.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Firstly, were the workers patrols organised by the CNT? Nope, the workers patrols were made up of 700 people, of whom 325 were CNT, 185 Esquerra, 145 UGT and 45 POUM. In addition, as Miravitlles noted, &#8220;power lay in the streets.&#8221; He is the source for James Donald&#8217;s statement above about the workers patrols. Here is what Miravitlles actually said:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;Their leaders on the committee said the libertarian movement was not responsible for the assassinations. &#8216;It&#8217;s the armed workers&#8217; patrols. Some of the members are assassins.&#8217; But in my view, they couldn&#8217;t confront this type of people who represented for them their own ideology. With the notable exception of Durruti at the front, the CNT was always plagued with indiscipline within its own ranks and didn&#8217;t know how to deal with it&#8230;&#8221;<\/em> [p. 150]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>We have indicated above exactly how the CNT-FAI did deal with the problems of the assassinations (i.e. they stopped them). Thus James Donald&#8217;s case is weakened even more.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>He then moves a few hundred kilometers to Aragon for his next example of &#8220;CNT terror.&#8221; It should be pointed out that Aragon is not actually in Catalonia (basic facts like this do not seem to matter!) and that the examples below are from &#8220;a few kilometers from the front line,&#8221; unlike the examples above, which are from Barcelona immediately after July 19th.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>James states that the example he gives, quoting Angel Navarro from p. 359 of <strong>Blood of Spain<\/strong>, is of <em>&#8220;continuing terror after CNT authority was successfully imposed.&#8221;<\/em> However, this is a few kilometers from the front line and did not involve the CNT imposing a form of authority on the village in question. Navarro says that after the terror, nothing changed in the village or on the land. Donald quotes Navarro as saying that in Alloza <em>&#8220;opinion generally favored the insurgent rather than the popular front cause.&#8221;<\/em> This means that the CNT militia facing the insurgents across no-man&#8217;s land may have been a bit worried about pro-fascists a few kilometers behind them. This worry does not justify the two murders, but it indicates why the people were arrested in the first place.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>James Donald then says that <em>&#8220;Angel Navarro. . . clearly expected organized official terror, when he said &#8220;now it begins&#8221;. Equally clearly, most of the villagers shared this concern (See Franco&#8217;s narrative, page 358).&#8221;<\/em> What James does not mention in all this is that the village was <em>&#8220;a few kilometers behind the front line.&#8221;<\/em> As would be expected in such circumstances, the troops at the front wanted to make sure that the area behind them was safe. This, remember, was a <strong>war zone<\/strong>. He also does not mention what the CNT representatives, who visited the village after these events occurred, said when suggested that the village create a collective. They <em>&#8220;stressed that no one was to be maltreated&#8221;<\/em>[p. 360] and many in the village felt safe enough not to join it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>James Donald goes on to state that, <em>&#8220;If the terrorists were a small group of people personally pursuing petty conflicts they would not have needed a list, and they would not have arrested people for later execution. . .The list and the arrests indicates specialization of labor in the mass production of murder. Some group to prepare the list, some group to operate the killing fields, which indicates a fairly large and permanent organization of mass murder.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Thus James Donald again claims that there was &#8220;killing fields&#8221; organised by a &#8220;permanent organisation of mass murder,&#8221; whereas in fact he provides no evidence to indicate that anything of the kind existed. What did exist? The CNT militias at the front, a few kilometers away. It should be noted that if the militia men were part of such an alleged &#8220;organisation,&#8221; would those in charge not have been annoyed that the militia men had not carried out their orders? And it should be pointed out that Angel Navarro managed to get the militia men to leave without anyone on their list (<em>&#8220;a list of people they had come to arrest&#8221;<\/em>).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>James says that because they arrested people, it indicates &#8220;the mass production of murder,&#8221; but in fact it indicates the intention of giving them a trial. It could be pointed out that in a previous visit, a week after the Carod column had reached the village and moved on to Muniesa, it was visited by militia men from two neighbouring villages to make four arrests (which included a priest and a civil guard lieutenant). Franco managed to save two of the four.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So let us summarise the evidence provided by James for his &#8220;killing fields&#8221; and &#8220;fairly large and permanent organization of mass murder.&#8221; Two visits to one village, one of which involved <strong>one<\/strong> car, indicating a pretty small list and which resulted in no deaths. And the overall outcome of this &#8220;mass production of murder&#8221;? Two people murdered out of a population of 1,800.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>James ends by moving back in time and distance to Barcelona, quoting the report by Joan Roig on what he heard another man say (but did not actually see happen). This incident is from, yet again, just after July 19th, when &#8220;power lay on the streets.&#8221; James goes on to say that <em>&#8220;Once again we see how the murderers acted openly and unafraid, while those who opposed terror were frightened and silent.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Roig, however, does not indicate that the man being shaved was in the CNT or FAI, or even if his story was actually true. Assuming that it was true, does this prove James Donald&#8217;s case? No, it does not, simply because it is an example of one person committing acts of terror while &#8220;power lay on the streets.&#8221; No evidence is provided that his actions were organised or backed by the CNT in any way. Funny that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>James Donald asked at the start of his examples, <em>&#8220;OK, there was terror on a vast scale. Next question. Who did it? Was it an unfortunate consequence of convicts getting out of jail and the breakdown of order, or was it systematically planned to terrorize the population into submission?&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Does he present any evidence that the terror was &#8220;systematically planned&#8221; in Catalonia? No, he does not. He supplies no evidence of &#8220;killing fields&#8221; or organised terror at all. In fact, all the evidence points the other way, that the 4,000 to 5,000 deaths in Catalonia were random acts committed by individuals or small groups. As for the example from Aragon, this again does not prove the existence of &#8220;killing fields&#8221; or &#8220;organised mass murder.&#8221; The events from Aragon, in a different time and place than the others James lists, occurred near the front line and was carried out in order to ensure that the front was not in danger from pro-fascists just behind it. These resulted in two deaths, out of a population of 1,800. As for his one example of workers&#8217; patrols taking people to be shot, it apparently comes from the time when &#8220;power lay in the streets.&#8221; Furthermore, the example does not even say it was a CNT workers&#8217; patrol. As evidence of CNT &#8220;organised mass murder&#8221; it is very weak. And one example from a 600-page book (and none from another book of over 1,000 pages) does not suggest that &#8220;centrally organised mass murder&#8221; actually existed in Catalonia or in Aragon.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The strange thing about Donald&#8217;s wild charges is that the historians he quotes do not mention these &#8220;killing fields&#8221; or &#8220;centrally planned mass murder&#8221; which he seems to think existed. I would imagine that if such thing had actualy existed they would have noticed it, particularly Bolloten, who was in Republican Spain at the time. The simple fact that they do not mention them shows that James Donald is clutching at straws. According to Bolloten, <em>&#8220;during the height of the Revolution&#8221;<\/em> there was <em>&#8220;spontaneous, undirected terror of the CNT and FAI,&#8221;<\/em> which he constrasts with <em>&#8220;the more sophisticated, centrally directed, and, hence, more fearful terror of the Communists&#8221;<\/em> [<strong>The Spanish Civil War<\/strong>, p.498] This clearly indicates that the CNT and FAI did not create a &#8220;centrally planned organisation of mass murder&#8221; at all.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It should be pointed out that there was a &#8220;centrally planned organisation of mass murder&#8221; in Spain at the time James is discussing (July 1936 to approximately May 1937) and there is substantial evidence to prove it. It was in Franco&#8217;s Spain, where mass terror really did occur &#8212; up to and including mass graves (&#8220;the killing fields&#8221;). And all serious historians have noted the difference between the spontaneous wave of assassinations, in the Republican zone, which quickly ended, with the officially planned slaughter in the Nationalist zone. A slaughter which, it should be noted, was warmly supported by capitalists and supporters of capitalism across the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>One eye-witness notes that he <em>&#8220;had occassion to witness the repression that was being carried on in both zones. In the nationalist zone it was planned, methodical, cold. The authorities didn&#8217;t trust the people and imposed their will through terror. To do so they committed atrocities. In the Popular Front zone atrocities were also committed. That was the similarity between the two; but the difference was that in the republican zone the crimes were committed by an impassioned people, not by the authorities. The latter always tried to prevent crimes . . . It wasn&#8217;t so in the nationalist zone. There more people where shot, it was scientifically organised . . . &#8220;<\/em>[Frazer, p. 276]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Historian Anthony Beevor in his 1982 book <strong>The Spanish Civil War<\/strong>, confirms this, noting that the <em>&#8220;worse of the violence occurred in the first few days throughout Republican Spain&#8221;<\/em> and the <em>&#8220;random killings started to be contained once the individuals exploiting the situation were suppressed by the &#8216;control patrols&#8217;, organised within a few days of the rising by the Central Committee of Anti-Fascist Militias.&#8221;<\/em> He also notes that <em>&#8220;appears that a considerable part of the violence, and most of the looting, was done by freed convicts . . . Many on the left also alleged that civil guards were often the most flagrant killers, as they sought to protect themselves from suspicions of sympathising with the right.&#8221;<\/em> [p. 73] He also indicates the motives of some of the killings, and how the anarchist organisations opposed them:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;In Barcelona the top priorities for revenge (after certain police officials like Miguel Badia) were the industrialists who had employed <strong>pistoleros<\/strong> aginst unions leaders and, of course, the gunmen themselves. There was inevitably a wide-ranging settlement of accounts against blacklegs. One or two killlings even went back to old inter-union disputes. Desiderio Trillas, the head of the UGT dockers,was shot down by a group of anarchists because he had prevented CNT members form receiving work. This murder was immediately condemned by the CNT_FAI leadership and they promised immediate execution of any of their members who killed out of personal motives. It was a threat which they carried out. Several prominent anarchists . . . were shot.&#8221;<\/em> [p. 73]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>He contrasts what happened in the Republican Zone with the state-imposed mass murder of the Nationalists:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;The pattern of killing in &#8216;white&#8217; Spain was different. It started as soon as an area had been secured by the Nationalist forces . . . Once the troops had move on, a second and more intense wave of slaughter would begin, as the Falange, or in some areas the Carlists, carried out a ruthless purge of the civilian population . . . It was a political slaughter which dwarfed its counterpart in Republican territory.&#8221;<\/em> [p. 74]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>He gives some indication what this centrally planning system of mass murder produced in terms of deaths. In Sevile province, around 9,000 were killed, in Granada it was 8,000. In Malaga, at least 3,500 were killed in the first week after the Nationalists took it. [p. 74] In Aragon, where James asserts the CNT created &#8220;killing fields&#8221;, Beevor points to <em>&#8220;the mass killings of CNT members in Saragoza and the outlying countryside&#8221;<\/em> by the fascists. In 1979, a mass grave was discovered near Saragossa 500 metres long with around 7,000 corpses in it. [p. 273, p. 75] More of Franco&#8217;s mass graves have been found since then, with the number of bodies expected to reach 100,000 (at least) once all have been investigated.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Comparing the deaths in the Republican zone to those in the Nationalist, in terms of numbers and nature of the repression there really is no comparison, so proving that James&#8217;s assertions are nonsense.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In other words, the acts of terror quoted above by Donald are exactly what anarchists claim they are, the uncontrolled acts of individuals and small groups acting on their own initiative and <strong>not<\/strong> directed by either the CNT and FAI. We do not doubt that CNT and FAI members were involved in acts of terror immediately after July 19th. However, they did so as individuals and against the wishes of their own organisations. These organisations also took steps to <strong>stop<\/strong> these activities, as indicated above. As for the example from Aragon, again these were carried out by the militia a few kilometers behind their front lines and was directed against possible pro-fascists in the village.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>On investigation, James Donald &#8220;case&#8221; for CNT run &#8220;killing fields&#8221; proves to be <strong>false<\/strong> and his conclusions are <strong>not<\/strong> supported by the historians whose books he uses, nor any other serious historian.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a id=\"govern\"><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><a id=\"govern\">Government in Catalonia<\/a><\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>James Donald asks <em>&#8220;Whatever happened to anarchy?&#8221;<\/em> in Catalonia during the revolution. This is an important question and one that anarchists have discussed many times since July 19th, 1936. However, the answer to this question is a little bit different than the one Donald suggests.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>To get an understanding of <strong>why<\/strong> this is the case we have to point out something Donald does not mention in his web pages. Namely, that the revolution in Spain occurred as a result of popular resistance to a <strong>Fascist Coup<\/strong>. On July 17th, 1936, the military tried to carry out a coup to overthrow the recently elected Popular Front government. The government refused to arm the population, and it was left to the unions (the CNT and UGT) to get arms and distribute them to the population. This they did, and the resulting street fighting saw the military defeated in two-thirds of Spain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Therefore, <em>&#8220;immediately after the revolution<\/em>&#8221; the CNT faced the situation of a pro-fascist army trying to take over the country. It says a lot about James Donald&#8217;s biases that he does not mention this fact anywhere in his diatribe on the Spanish Anarchists.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Donald acknowledges that <em>&#8220;immediately after the revolution, there was no state, no government, no one monopoly of force&#8221;<\/em> and that it was in this context that workers and peasants took over their workplaces and land. The period between July and September 1936 can be characterised as one of spontaneous, widespread, but unconsummated social revolution. It should be noted here that this account totally contradicts Donald&#8217;s argument that the CNT created &#8220;centrally organised killing fields,&#8221; as presented in his discussion of terror in Catalonia. There he argued that the CNT leadership organised &#8220;terror&#8221; on a vast scale, but now he states that there was no such monopoly of force. Thus he refutes his own argument.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Moving on, James Donald claims that during the early days of the revolution there were <em>&#8220;a multitude of local committees that exercised absolute power, sometimes benevolently, sometimes in a terrifying and brutal fashion.&#8221;<\/em> However, as can be seen from an examination of both the rural and industrial collectives, as well as whatever CNT committees existed, these committees did not exercise &#8220;absolute power&#8221; but were in fact (in the main) democratically elected bodies with little or no power. As discussed <a href=\"#terror\">elsewhere<\/a>, what terror occurred in Spain was the result of power being &#8220;on the streets&#8221; and not in the hands of any committees.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Donald then goes on to claim that <em>&#8220;often one such committee had desires that conflicted with another such committee. Such matters were resolved by higher committees, which led to the rapid consolidation of power in fewer and fewer committees, with greater and greater power&#8221;<\/em>, but he provides no evidence to back this claim up. As Bolloten points out, the local committees that did exist in each community were supported by the CNT, which opposed attempts to get rid of them in favour of state bodies. As he notes, <em>&#8220;it was a far cry from the promulgation of the decrees to their actual implementation, and in a large number of localities, where the Anarchosyndicalists were in undisputed ascendency, and even in some where the less radical UGT was dominant, the committees subsisted in the teeth of government opposition.&#8221;<\/em> [<strong>The Civil War in Spain<\/strong>, p. 215] This non-CNT attack on the committees took place once the CNT had joined the government as a minority, and so can hardly be blamed on the CNT.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Following up on this piece of wishful thinking, James Donald claims that <em>&#8220;Modern collectivist anarchists propose exactly that solution to the use of force, that force be used as &#8216;the people&#8217; direct, despite the disastrous outcome of this procedure in Catalonia.&#8221;<\/em> Unfortunately for James Donald, this is only what <strong>he<\/strong> thinks. Modern anarchists, like not-so-modern anarchists, support decentralisation of power into the hands of local communities and workplaces and oppose random acts of violence. They oppose what Donald claims they support, which is hardly surprising given Donald&#8217;s grasp of reality. For a detailed introduction to the ideas of anarchism, we recommend <a href=\"http:\/\/www.anarchistfaq.org\/\">An Anarchist FAQ<\/a> where Donald&#8217;s nonsense can be seen for what it is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Donald goes on to claim that <em>&#8220;Modern individualist anarchists propose a very different solution to this problem&#8221;<\/em> which is &#8220;Anarcho-Capitalism.&#8221; It should be noted that not-so-modern and modern <a href=\"https:\/\/anarchistfaq.org\/afaq\/sectionG.html\">individualist anarchists<\/a> call(ed) themselves socialists and oppose(d) capitalism, and that &#8220;anarcho&#8221;-capitalism has little to do with their ideas. In addition, &#8220;anarcho&#8221;-capitalism is not anarchist, because it entails the creation of <strong>private states<\/strong> whose major function is to defend capitalist wealth and power. The authoritarian implications of &#8220;anarcho&#8221; capitalism is discussed in more detail <a href=\"https:\/\/anarchistfaq.org\/afaq\/sectionF.html\">here<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Donald next discusses what happened in Catalonia. First he states that the anarchists created <em>&#8220;the militia committee, a popular front organization that imposed a monopoly of force in Barcelona, though not a monopoly outside Barcelona.&#8221;<\/em> This means that for Donald, &#8220;anarchy&#8221; existed in Barcelona for all of <strong>one<\/strong> day! However, it&#8217;s pretty clear that for a considerable time after July 19th, power &#8220;lay in the streets.&#8221; But we will ignore this and note that Donald does not explain <strong>why<\/strong> this body was created.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The suggestion of creating the Militia Committee did not arise in the CNT. Companys (president of Catalonia) suggested it to the delegates of the CNT who visited him after the fighting was over. These delegates returned to a CNT plenum, which discussed what the CNT should do at that point. Many in the CNT plenum argued that the CNT should proclaim libertarian communism and totally overthrow the state and capitalism. However, the majority thought the best response to the problem of the Fascist coup was to collaborate with the other anti-fascist parties and unions. They argued that <strong>not<\/strong> to do this would lead to a civil war within in a civil war in Catalonia. They therefore accepted Companys suggestion.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, far from being the secret statists that Donald implies here, the CNT decided to collaborate with other anti-fascist groups in order to defeat fascism. However, most anarchists recognise that this was a fundamental error which led to the defeat of both the revolution and the war. This will be discussed later.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Donald then goes on to say that the Militia Committee <em>&#8220;compelled people to do its will, most notably by taking control of food, but was not officially a state and did not officially compel people.&#8221;<\/em> Firstly, a few points. The Committee was initially powerless and the social revolution which took place in Catalonia (and elsewhere) was the result of local CNT and UGT members taking over their workplaces or land. Therefore, as far as compelling people &#8220;to do its will,&#8221; the revolution occurred in spite of, not because, of the Committee.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>This can be seen from the creation of militias which went to the front to fight Fascism which were based on volunteers. It can also be seen from the collectivisation movement, which occurred even though the CNT officially had decided to &#8220;put off&#8221; the revolution until the war had been won. As for <em>&#8220;taking control of food&#8221;<\/em>, Donald is referring to the supplies committees created by the unions, which Joan Domench was appointed by the Committee to look after. The committees did requisition food and products, this is very true. Food was seized from shops and sent to hospitals, the militia and so on. Given that there was a total breakdown in normal life, it&#8217;s not surprising that &#8220;property rights&#8221; were violated; and since anarchists do not respect private ownership of the means of production, it&#8217;s not surprising that the CNT membership did take over retail outlets, workplaces and so on. Really, if we take James Donald&#8217;s argument seriously and apply it to July 19th, then the CNT should not have &#8220;stolen&#8221; weapons and distributed them to the population, i.e. it should have let fascism win.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>As for controlling the food supply, the supply committees did take responsibility for ensuring that the cities were fed. They did this by exchanging produce for food from elsewhere. This process worked pretty well, and most countries in a war situation introduce some form of control over food supplies. It should be noted that when the supply committees were abolished under the communist Joan Comorera (who introduced a &#8220;free market&#8221; in food), people started to go hungry and this had an adverse effect on morale.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Of course Donald is trying to imply a &#8220;centralised&#8221; control of food under the Militia Committee. This is false, as Borkenau states: <em>&#8220;Comorera&#8230; did not substitute for the chaotic bread committees a centralised administation.&#8221;<\/em> [<strong>The Spanish Cockpit<\/strong>, p.184]. In other words the system, while not perfect, did work, did feed people and was not a centralised set-up.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>James Donald then points out that the Committee <em>&#8220;appointed a police force of seven hundred men (the famous, or infamous, worker&#8217;s patrols).&#8221;<\/em> This is true, but he does not mention the fact that the population was armed and so the workers&#8217; patrols (made up of people from <strong>all<\/strong> unions and parties) could not be said to have a monopoly of weapons. However, it&#8217;s ironic that Donald is pointing this out because, as an &#8220;anarcho&#8221; capitalist, he has no problem with <strong>private<\/strong> police forces.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Moving on, James Donald presents one of his more outrageous statements. He states that <em>&#8220;then later, their leaders decided in secret, in cheerful defiance of the democratic procedures described in the CNT constitution, to dissolve the militia committee, to officially recreate the state rather than unofficially. The Generalitad was officially and formally a state. This decision was abruptly imposed on the CNT from above by in cheerful defiance of the CNT&#8217;s internal &#8216;democratic procedures.'&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Before discussing the question of CNT democracy, we have to point out James Donald&#8217;s obvious fallacy &#8212; namely that the CNT &#8220;recreated the state.&#8221; This should be classed as a <strong>lie<\/strong> as it completely misrepresents what actually happened. In September, 1936, the Central Committee was dissolved and the CNT <strong>did<\/strong> send people into the government. However, they did not &#8220;recreate&#8221; this government, they joined one that already existed. This is an important difference.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>By saying that the CNT &#8220;recreated&#8221; the state, James Donald is implying the the CNT leadership wanted power and created a state body to enforce their rule. This is the opposite of what happened. The CNT did not destroy the state after July 19th, they ignored it. Power lay in the streets, and the state itself had no means of enforcing its laws or decisions. After the CNT agreed to join the Militia Committee, the anarchist revolution was put on hold politically and the state was ignored, not destroyed.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Taking this opportunity, the various political parties (who all had a long history of anti-CNT feeling) worked to ensure that the state became stronger and stronger. This soon led to a situation of &#8220;dual power&#8221; in Catalonia, as the original state stopped being just a &#8220;rubber stamp&#8221; for the Militia Committee and the Committee became more and more marginalised. As the Catalan state controled the banks and credit as well as whatever arms were sent from the Central Government, it is little wonder that the Militia Committee became irrelevent. As noted, the rank and file of the CNT got on with creating their revolution outside of the control of either body.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, the problem quickly arose that the CNT was being marginalised by the political parties. This meant that the CNT found it harder and harder to get funds for the collectives and arms for its militia. Hence they placed winning the war against fascism above their own principles &#8212; <em>&#8220;The war made the decision inevitable; the CNT couldn&#8217;t allow itself to betrampled on by the political parties, it had to join the government&#8221;<\/em> [<strong>Blood of Spain<\/strong>, p. 186]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The decision was reached at a CNT plenum in August and September 1936. James Donald is right in that the CNT made the decision to join the government in violation of its democratic principles, since the rank and file were not consulted. However, the fact that this decision was taken undemocratically is a far cry from there being &#8220;no democracy&#8221; in Catalonia, as Donald claims. This aspect of his diatribe is discussed <a href=\"#demo\">here<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a id=\"demo\"><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><a id=\"demo\">Anarchosocialist &#8220;Democracy&#8221;<\/a><\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>Under this heading, James Donald claims that <em>&#8220;the fact that most modern anarcho-socialists advocate democratic procedures is itself ample evidence that they are not anarchists, for democracy is meaningless unless the majority can compel the minority to submit to its will.&#8221;<\/em> However, anarchists are very specific about their support for democratic procedures &#8212; they support it as the only libertarian means for a group to make a decision. The fact that &#8220;anarcho&#8221; capitalists reject democracy (i.e. self-management) in favour of hierarchy is itself ample evidence that they are not anarchists.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>A simple example will prove this point. In a capitalist workplace the employees are told what to do by a manager who is appointed by the owners. The employees are expected to follow orders or leave. Therefore capitalism creates hierarchies which destroy the employees&#8217; ability to manage the decisions that affect their lives during work hours. In other words, they are <strong>controlled<\/strong> and so <strong>governed<\/strong> by a minority. In an anarchist workplace, decisions are reached by majority vote and all individuals can express themselves and help determine what affects them. From this example, it&#8217;s clear that &#8220;anarcho&#8221; capitalists are not anarchists &#8212; they support government and authoritarian control.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Donald then goes on to state that <em>&#8220;the events in Catalonia suggest that even their advocacy of democratic procedures is also sham. Not only did they implement a government, they implemented an undemocratic and unconstitutional government.&#8221;<\/em> Of course, only James Donald <strong>really<\/strong> knows what anarchists <strong>really<\/strong> think. Like all authoritarians, he knows what the &#8220;truth&#8221; is, and if his opponents state the exact opposite of what he claims, then their claims are false, not his. Is James seriously claiming that the CNT and FAI militants who put up with years of repression, imprisonment, and assassinations, actually were just waited for the moment to &#8220;implement a government&#8221;? Hardly, if this was the case they would have stood for elections like the pro-capitalist &#8220;Libertarian Party&#8221; in the USA (an party which many &#8220;anarcho&#8221;-capitalists seem happy to join and vote for &#8211; apparently in the belief that &#8220;anarchy&#8221; can come through the state!). As noted, his choice of words is distinctly misleading, as the CNT did not create but joined a government. No matter how many times Donald repeats his lie, it does not make it true.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Donald then goes on to state that <em>&#8220;the undemocratic actions of the Anarcho-socialists would not be particularly undemocratic if they had an ideology and their organizations had a constitution whereby the elected leaders have a mandate to do as they please until the next election. Their actions were objectionable because they were taken in defiance of their theory and of the constitutions of their organizations.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>We are sure that readers of James Donald&#8217;s web-pages would be surprised to find out that anarchists have long argued that his point is correct. For example, the plenum held by the CNT militants on July 20th should have organised a full conference of the CNT, UGT and non-unionised workplaces in order to fully discuss what to do. However, given the fact of the recent fascist coup, it&#8217;s certain that many CNT militants considered it more important to get the militias organised to go free those parts of Spain that were under Franco. This does not justify their actions, but it does explain them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Now, moving on, Donald states that <em>&#8220;similarly there would be nothing offensive in their undemocratic actions if they were real anarchists, but instead they exercised state power in the name of their followers, and did not bother to obtain their followers consent to it.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So &#8220;real&#8221; anarchists think it&#8217;s okay to govern people? Doanld&#8217;s statement says a lot about his claim to be an anarchist. Is he actually suggesting that it&#8217;s okay for anarchists to act undemocratically and exercise state power as long as they did so in their own name? Given his support for private cops, capitalist hierarchy, and military coups, we can only assume that he is. Obviously &#8220;real&#8221; anarchists like James Donald think that hier-archy is compatible with no-archy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>He then goes on to quote Burnett Bolloten&#8217;s <strong>The Grand Camouflage<\/strong>, page 159, that the decision to join the government was made <em>&#8220;in violation of the democratic principle, it had been taken without consulting the rank and file.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>This is true. However, Donald does not raise the important question of why, if the rank and file opposed the move, did they not resist it. Many anarchists opposed the collaboration and argued against it in their newspapers. For example, both the Libertarian Youth and Friends of Durruti published papers in which they opposed the compromises and collaboration of the CNT, arguing their case many times openly and in public. Here is an eyewitness account of a Libertarian Youth conference:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;And then I saw a Libertarian Youth conference which was prepared to vote almost unanimously to condemn without debate the policy of government collaboration. However, the chairman insisted that supporters of collaboration be given a chance to speak and be heard. I saw six young men go to the platform and argue earnestly and eloquently for their viewpoint. There were no interruptions, no booing. The vote remained almost unanimous in favour of opposing collaboration.&#8221;<\/em> [Abe Bluestein, introduction to <strong>Anarchist Organisation:The History of the F.A.I.<\/strong>]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In addition, we have noted many times the democratic nature of the industrial and rural collectives, in which people could discuss issues in mass assemblies. This means that a democratic means existed to express opinions all across Catalonia and Aragon. In addition, all non-fascist political parties and unions had their own press and used them to put forward their ideas.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In addition, there were numerous CNT conferences and plenums during the revolution. In September 1936, for example, there were National and Regional CNT plenums where the decision to join the government was made. On September 24th, 1936, a Regional Plenum of Syndicates was held in Barcelona at which 505 delegates representing 327 syndicates which agreed that the CNT should join the Government in Catalonia. It should be pointed out that the CNT was a minority in this government, which was made up of the following numbers &#8211; 3 CNT, 5 republicans, 2 PSUC and 1 POUM.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>This figure clearly shows that James Donald&#8217;s claim that the CNT &#8220;created&#8221; the state is a <strong>lie<\/strong>. If the CNT was as powerful as he claimed, would they have &#8220;created&#8221; a state in which they were in a minority? Of course not.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Donald then quotes Fraser&#8217;s <strong>Blood of Spain<\/strong>, page 184:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;But more was evidently needed. The choice was between working class and popular front power. There were no alternatives.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>The decision in favor of the latter was reached at a secret meeting [&#8230;] The decision was kept secret.<\/em> [&#8230;]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;The Catalan CNT sprang its surprise: Three CNT ministers were joining the new Generalitat government: The militia committee was to be dissolved, and with it all the local committees. &#8220;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It should be pointed out that the last quote ends with <em>&#8220;all the local committees were to be replaced by new town councils&#8221;<\/em> in which all Popular Front and unions were to be represented.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Donald then states that <em>&#8220;Ronald Frazer does not draw any conclusions from the fact that these decisions were made in secret by an organization that was supposedly functioning by participatory democracy.&#8221;<\/em> However, Fraser does mention the following:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;The CNT would determine its own decisions. At the end of August, it did so. . .Again the majority opted for &#8216;collaboration&#8217; &#8212; but with a difference; this time it was to accept the invitation, repeatedly made by President Companys, to participate in the Generalitat government&#8221;<\/em> [p. 184]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>This &#8220;secret meeting&#8221; referred to by Fraser is thus this August meeting and that decision was confirmed by the September one. These were plenums of CNT unions&#8217; &#8220;shop stewards&#8221; and so were &#8220;secret&#8221; to outsiders. These CNT shop stewards were not full-timers but militants from the shop-floor and so were aware of the feelings of the CNT membership. Again, these plenums had heated discussions before the decision to collaborate was decided.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The reasoning behind this decision was far from the James Donald seems to be suggesting. Basically, unless they collaborated, the CNT would have been denied arms and resources and so marginalised &#8212; <em>&#8220;The war made the decision inevitable; the CNT couldn&#8217;t allow itself to betrampled on by the political parties, it had to join the government&#8221;<\/em> [p.186]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>As for the local committees being replaced, this was the idea of the Republicans and Communists. As Bolloten points out, they <em>&#8220;hoped that this participation, by enchancing the government&#8217;s authority among the rank and file of the CNT and FAI, would facilitate the reconstruction of the shattered machinery of the state. . .they further hoped that the CNT&#8217;s entry. . .would hasten the supplanting of these committees. . .by regular organs of administration that had either been thrust into the shade or has ceased to function from the first day of the Revolution&#8221;<\/em> [Op. Cit., p. 212] We have already noted that these committees were not replaced without a struggle. Therefore, in practice, the powers of the state were pretty weak. It did not attempt to crush the revolution until May 1937, months after the CNT had joined the government as a minority.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>James Donald then states the following: <em>&#8220;Since this announcement was a surprise, I draw the inference that the local committees were not consulted and therefore that they were a mere pretense, like the workers Soviets of the Soviet unions, powerless and impotent, mere window dressing to maintain the charade of mass participation in the affairs of the masters and mass support for whatever the masters happened to will at that particular moment.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>However, as noted, what Donald does not quote is the reference to the CNT regional plenum of August in which the decision was made. This meeting was made up of members of local CNT union committees. As indicated from Bolloten, Fraser, and many other sources, CNT plenums were held and decisions reached by the debate in these meetings. In other words, his inference is <strong>false<\/strong>. This can be seen from some quotes from Frazer which Donald strangely does not provide:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;The decision in favour of the latter [collaboration] was reached at a secret meeting [the Catalan CNT plenum of unions in August] and was taken . . .by the Catalan libertarians alone; only they could decide a matter which affected their region &#8211; though its impact was national. The decision was kept secret&#8221;<\/em> [p. 184-5] and <em>&#8220;While heated discussions continued in Madrid, the Catalan CNT sprang its surprise.&#8221;<\/em> [p. 186] In other words, the local committees were consulted and the decision was made locally.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>He then continues, <em>&#8220;Because they were not functioning in accordance with their own theory and constitution, I infer that they were not functioning in accordance with any theory or constitution.&#8221;<\/em> This is partly true, the CNT had made so many compromises that a leadership had developed and had become increasingly separated from its base. However, it is false to suggest that &#8220;they&#8221; were functioning as tyrants. Taking an example from May 1937:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;At a conference of local unions in Barcelona, the leadership sought and obtained the support of the unions to continue to collaborate with the government of Catalonia after the May Days. However, the unions refused to withhold financial support for the Libertarian Youth, who opposed the policy of collaboration vigorously in their publications. And the unions also refused to call upon the transit workers not to distribute these opposition publications in the public transit system, or the milk drivers to stop distributing the Libertarian Youth papers together with the daily milk.&#8221;<\/em> [Abe Bluestein, introduction to <strong>Anarchist Organisation: The History of the F.A.I.<\/strong>]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Hence it can be seen that, while <strong>not<\/strong> as it should be, the internal democracy of the CNT was working to some degree. As is evident from Bolloten&#8217;s account and, in passing, from Fraser&#8217;s, the decision to join the government was made by a CNT plenum, <strong>not<\/strong> a CNT committee acting alone, as James Donald suggests in his diatribe. This is not to say that everything was &#8220;ideal,&#8221; just to point out it was not as bad as Donald makes out.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>He then does on to state: <em>&#8220;A collectivist anarchist condemned the formation of the militia committee as follows&#8221;<\/em> and quotes from an <a href=\"http:\/\/www.spunk.org\/texts\/places\/spain\/sp000335.txt\">article<\/a> on the Spanish revolution. Here is the quotation (put in the correct order):<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;Instead of pursuing anarchist policies (and past CNT policy as indicated from congresses), the committee members started to pursue their own policies. Far from NOT seizing power themselves (as the Trotskyites lament, their definition of &#8216;workers power&#8217;), the CNT and FAI committee members seized power within their own organizations.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>[&#8230;]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;In practice the committees had been separated from the rank and file and their members transformed from delegates into representatives (&#8220;leaders&#8221; in every sense of the word) who started to make policy decisions on the rank and files behalf, without bothering to consult them.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>[&#8230;.]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;This shows clearly the role of the CNT committee members (see also &#8220;Towards a Fresh Revolution&#8221; by the Friends of Durruti). They used their new found influence in the eyes of Spain to unite with the leaders of other organizations\/parties but not the rank and file. This process lead to the creation of the &#8220;Central Committee of Anti Fascist Militias&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>[&#8230;]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;This first betrayal of anarchist principles led to all the rest, [&#8230;]&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It makes interesting reading to see what is hidden by the deletions indicated by James Donald&#8217;s use of dots within brackets ([&#8230;]). The anarchist writer in question argues that <em>&#8220;the leading committees [of the CNT] decided off their own backs not to talk of libertarian communism but only of the fight against fascism&#8221;<\/em> and that the <em>&#8220;state and government was not abolished by self-management, only ignored&#8221;<\/em> &#8212; in other words, he points out that the CNT did <strong>not<\/strong> introduce anarchism into Catalonia but instead cooperated with other unions and political parties in order to fight the fascists. The author of the article`s major mistake, we should point out, lies in ignoring the responsibility of the rank and file CNT members, a point we will discuss below.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>James Donald then goes on and says that <em>&#8220;He complains that the &#8216;Central Committee of the Anti Fascist Militias&#8217; was not organized in accordance with anarcho-socialists principles&#8221;<\/em> which is true, in a way. He actually argues that this body should not have been created at all and instead argued that a <em>&#8220;genuine federal body&#8221;<\/em> based on <em>&#8220;workplace, militia and community assemblies&#8221;<\/em> should have been created. In other words, that the CNT should not have compromised its anarchist principles in the name of anti-fascist unity and smashed the state.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Donald then argues: <em>&#8220;But the Central Committee created a police force with a special privilege of exercising force, impermissable to ordinary mortals,&#8221;<\/em> which is <strong>false<\/strong>. As noted, during the periods around July 19th 1936 and May 1937, the working class of Catalonia were armed. In other words, &#8220;use of force&#8221; was &#8220;exercised&#8221; by &#8220;ordinary mortals.&#8221; Its strange that James Donald seems to forget this little fact, along with the fascist coup that resulted in these arms being distributed to the population. It makes one wonder whether his account can be trusted.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Donald then asks, <em>&#8220;Are we to conclude that if the Central Committee was organized in accordance with anarchist principles, it would have been perfectly in accord with anarchist principles for it to create a police force?&#8221;<\/em> Interesting question. As James Donald supports the idea of <strong>private<\/strong> police forces, it&#8217;s hard to understand what to make of this point. He obviously has no quarrel with police forces as such. Now, the question arises: if the revolution in Catalonia had proceeded in an anarchist fashion, would it have been &#8220;in accordance with anarchist principles to create a police force.&#8221; The answer to this is that it would have depended on what people wanted. If the individuals in their various communities had thought that &#8220;police forces&#8221; were required, then we are sure they would have organised them. So, there is no answer to this question. One thing is sure, however: allowing companies to employ private cops does not equal a libertarian society any more than ignoring the state does.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Lastly, James summarises as follows: <em>&#8220;In effect he makes the same complaint for Catalonia as for every other socialist revolution. &#8216;If only the leaders had been more virtuous.'&#8221;<\/em> More like General Pincohet, perhaps? But no, the anarchist in question is indicating what happened, and he asks in <a href=\"http:\/\/www.spunk.org\/texts\/pubs\/sa\/2\/sp001224.txt\">part two<\/a> of his article whether <em>&#8220;the defeat in Spain [was] a defeat of anarchist theory and tactics OR a failure of anarchists to apply their theory and tactics.&#8221;<\/em> He concludes that it was the latter.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Whether anarchists are happy with it or not, the simple fact is that the rank and file of the CNT allowed the CNT leadership to join, and continue to stay in, a government. As indicated above, they had ample opportunity to hear arguments against collaboration and to express themselves in union and collective meetings. Even after going on strike and taking to the streets during the <a href=\"#sec5\">May Days<\/a> against the communist-led attack on their revoluntary conquests, they returned to work after the CNT leadership asked them to. This suggests that, like many CNT and FAI leaders, they considered collaboration as the lesser evil to Fascism, and so sacrificed their principles in the hope that the capitalist-backed totalitarianism of Franco could be stopped.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Unfortunately this did not happen. It is clear that the Communists, Republicans, and Liberals preferred fascism to even the slightest hint of anarchism. As did, it should be noted, the capitalists in Spain and internationally. The tragedy of Spain is that many anarchists did not apply their ideas in practice and instead collaborated with the state in the name of &#8220;anti-fascist&#8221; unity. They did so for noble reasons, but the results just reenforced the conclusion that statism and capitalism do not work.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a id=\"serf\"><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><a id=\"serf\">Serfdom in Catalonia?<\/a><\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>Here James Donald attempts to show how the CNT &#8220;enserfed&#8221; the peasants in Catalonia. He correctly points out that a <em>&#8220;serf is bound to the land. He is not free to leave if he objects to his masters mistreatment.&#8221;<\/em> and goes on to say that <em>&#8220;Every socialist revolution has led to the reintroduction of serfdom&#8221;<\/em>. He then quotes Ronald Fraser, page 367 and the testimony of two eyewitnesses, which indicates that their collective was a horrific dictatorship. He then takes this testimony as typical of all the Aragon collectives.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>However, there are a few problems with James Donald argument. The first, and the most basic, is that his example is from <strong>Aragon<\/strong> and <strong>not<\/strong> Catalonia. You would think that he would get basics like this correct. He does not present any evidence of serfdom in Catalonia, which is strange considering his title.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Moving on, he quotes Ronald Fraser&#8217;s summary of this one collective:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;For detractors of Aragon collectives, Fernando&#8217;s experience was more or less typical: For supporters exceptional, but undeniable.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Fair enough. The question arises, was this a typical experience? The answer is a most definite <strong>no<\/strong>. Lets look at the other collectives in Aragon that Fraser documents. He describes another three, all of which were democratic and voluntary. According to one member of the Beceite collective, <em>&#8220;it was marvellous&#8230;to live in a collective, a free society where one could say what one thought, where if the village committee seemed unsatisfactory one could say. The committee took no big decisions without calling the whole village together in a general assembly. All this was wonderful&#8221;<\/em> (p. 288).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In the another collective, an eye-witness states that <em>&#8220;Once the work groups were established on a friendly basis and worked their own lands, everyone got on well enough, he recalled. There was no need for coercion, no need for discipline and punishment&#8230;. A collective wasn&#8217;t a bad idea at all&#8221;<\/em> [p. 360]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>How about on a wider scale. The one collective James Donald takes as &#8220;typical&#8221; was a &#8220;total&#8221; one, i.e. no one was allowed outside. Was this typical? Not at all. According to Fraser (on page 366), an FAI schoolteacher stated that forced collectivisation <em>&#8220;wasn&#8217;t a widespread problem, because there weren&#8217;t more than twenty or so villages where collectivisation was total and no one was allowed to remain outside&#8230;&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>There were 450 collectives in Aragon, meaning that 95% of collectives were voluntary. Hence, an example of one the 5% that were &#8220;total&#8221; is hardly typical. It should also be noted that 70% of the population of Aragon joined collectives, again indicating their basically voluntary nature. Both these facts James Donald ignores.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Lastly, James Donald says the following:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;Fraser also concludes that peasants were generally not free to leave the collectives, though he implies that in a great many cases they were restrained by less blatant and drastic means than were used to restrain Fernando Aragon. They were not allowed to have any money, food reserves, or means of transport, making it impossible to travel without permission.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I think its fair to quote Ronald Fraser and his conclusions on whether people could leave the collectives. He concludes as follows:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;Conditions obviously varied from collective to collective and, as in many other aspects, generalisation is impossible&#8221;<\/em> [p. 368]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>To state, then, &#8220;Fraser also concludes&#8221; is a downright lie, as can be seen from the above quote.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Lastly, I think that it is worth pointing out some details about the eyewitness whose statements James Donald uses to build his &#8220;case.&#8221; For someone who was confined to his village by the committee, Aragon seemed to know what was happening at the front lines. Fraser quotes him on page 135 saying that the anarchist Red and Black column and the POUM militia would sit back and laugh when the other went into battle. So how does he know that if he was &#8220;enserfed&#8221; in his village?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Fraser points out that, for <em>&#8220;extraneous reasons&#8221;<\/em> he could not <em>&#8220;talk to supporters and detractors of the collectives&#8230; in the Angues collective&#8230; The testimony of Fernando ARAGON and his wife &#8212; a view of the inherent undemocratic dangers contained within the collectivisation experiment &#8212; must stand on its own&#8221;<\/em> (p. 369)<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>This means that out of 300,000 people and 450 collectives, James Donald takes as &#8220;typical&#8221; the testimony of <strong>two<\/strong> people in <strong>one<\/strong> collective. Testimony that could not be checked at that!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>That is really impressive!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Historian Antony Beevor (while noting that there <em>&#8220;had undoubtedly been pressure, and no doubt force was used on some occasions in the fervour after the rising&#8221;<\/em>) just stated the obvious when he wrote that <em>&#8220;the very fact that every village was a mixture of collectivists and individualists shows that peasants had not been forced into communal farming at the point of a gun.&#8221;<\/em> [<strong>The Spanish Civil War<\/strong>, p. 206]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>There is one last test which we can apply to see if James Donald&#8217;s case is true. In August, 1937, the Republican Government sent communist troops under the command of the Communist Lister to dissolve the Aragon collectives. If the collectives in Aragon were as James Donald describes them you would imagine that the Aragonese would have welcomed the troops with open arms. However, this is not quite true. As the non-anarchist historian Oved points out:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;Those who were responsible for this policy [of attacking the Aragon Collectives], were convinced that the farmers would greet it joyfully because they had been coerced into joining the collectives. But they were proven wrong. Except for the rich estate owners who were glad to get their land back, most of the members of the agricultural collectives objected and lacking all motivation they were relucant to resume the same effort of in the agricultural work. This phenomenon was so widespread that the authoritorities and the communist minister of agriculture were forced to retreat from their hostile policy&#8221;<\/em> [Yaacov Oved, <strong>Communismo Libertario and Communalism in the Spanish Collectivisations (1936-1939)<\/strong>]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>This is backed up by Bolloten who notes that the result was of Lister&#8217;s activities was <em>&#8220;a pall of dismay and apprehension descended upon the agricultural labourers. Work in the fields was abandoned in many places or only carried on apathetically, and there was danger that a substantial portion of the harvest, vital for the war effort, would be left to rot&#8221;<\/em> [<strong>The Grand Camouflage<\/strong>, p. 196] It should also be noted that the output from the Aragon collectives was 20% higher than before their creation. This combined with the virtual collapse of production after Lister &#8220;liberated&#8221; the area indicates that the collectives were popular and did not &#8220;enserf&#8221; anyone. Even the Communists had to redress the situation and changes its policy &#8211; the breakdown of the economy resulted in a decree being passed wich legalized collectives <em>&#8220;during the current agricultural year.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Yet again, we see that James Donald&#8217;s case falls apart on closer inspection.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a id=\"capital\"><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><a id=\"capital\">Capitalism in Catalonia?<\/a><\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>James Donald claims that the anarchists of Catalonia frequently and spectacularly failed to live up their ideals. In some cases, this is true. For example, the CNT <strong>did<\/strong> join the <a href=\"#govern\">government<\/a> in the name of anti-fascist unity. Moreover, some anarchists did commit acts of <a href=\"#terror\">terror<\/a> although James Donald&#8217;s claims of &#8220;killing fields&#8221; are just figments of his imagination. He also claims that the CNT imposed <a href=\"#bait\">socialism by violence<\/a>, and that they engaged in brutal <a href=\"#serf\">exploitation<\/a>. As can be seen from the referenced pages, nothing of the kind actually happened.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>However, James claims that <em>&#8220;the most interesting thing is what happened when they did live up to their libertarian ideals&#8221;<\/em> and states the following:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;Two months before the revolution, the CNT voted that collectives should be free each to pursue its own goals, that industry should be collectivized rather than socialized or nationalized, but they expected that people would spontaneously act in a socialist fashion.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>This, however, is all nonsense. James Donald is refering to the CNT congress of May 1936 at which no such thing was discussed. As Frazer points out, <em>&#8220;was doubtful that the CNT had seriously envisaged collectivisation of industry. . .before this time.&#8221;<\/em> [p. 212] In fact, the CNT argued that industry should be <strong>socialised<\/strong> and run by the unions on behalf of society. They did oppose nationalisation as a new form of capitalism, but they wholeheartedly supported socialisation and federations of communes. The individual workplaces would be self-managed, but the CNT&#8217;s program called for the construction of &#8220;libertarian communism.&#8221; This would mean that the economy as a whole would be socialized, it would not consist of producers operating independently of each other on the basis of market exchange. Instead, workers would manage the industry they work in as a kind of &#8220;subcontract&#8221; from the whole community.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The collectives were a compromise that resulted because the CNT collaborated in the name of anti-fascist unity. The concept of &#8220;collectivization&#8221; was suggested by Joan Fabregas, a Catalan nationalist of middle class origin who had joined the CNT after July of &#8217;36.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;Up to that moment, I had never heard of collectivization as a solution for industry &#8212; the department stores were being run by the union,&#8221; says Joan Ferrer, the Commercial Union secretary. &#8220;What the new system meant was that each collectivized firm would retain its individual character, but with the ultimate objective of federating all enterprises within the same industry&#8230;&#8221;<\/em> [<strong>Blood of Spain<\/strong>, p. 212.)<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Therefore, James Donald starts his discussion with nonsense.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Moving on, he claims that <em>&#8220;But the workers did not spontaneously act in a socialist fashion. Instead collectives and individuals acted in a capitalist fashion, each pursuing profit in competition with all the others. This led to highly unsocialist outcomes, outcomes that many in the CNT found unacceptable.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Firstly, it should be noted that &#8220;pursuing profit&#8221; is not acting in a &#8220;capitalist manner&#8221; &#8211; employing others and getting them to produce a profit for you is. For anarchists, socialism is about individuals cooperating together to maximise their own benefits and freedom. In this sense, the collectives were distinctly anti-capitalist. They showed that workers, when free to choose, will not work for a capitalist.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>He then quotes Frazer as follows (<strong>Blood of Spain<\/strong>, page 231):<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;In February 1937, four months after the [collectivization and socialization] decrees approval, a joint CNT-UGT textile union conference agreed that the experience demonstrated that the collectivization of individual plants had been mistaken, and that it was necessary to proceed to the total socialization of industry if ownership of the means of production was not once more to lead to the exploitation of man by man.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It should be noted that there was no such thing as a &#8220;socialisation&#8221; decree as James Donald is well aware. There was only the &#8220;collectivisation&#8221; decree, which many anarchists considered as holding back the revolution. As Gaston Level argues, the decree <em>&#8220;legalising collectivisation&#8221;<\/em>, <em>&#8220;distorted everything from the start&#8221;<\/em> by ensuring that the revolution could not be extended fully under workplace control (see his book <strong>Collectives in the Spanish Revolution<\/strong> for more discussion).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The problems of collectivisation were noted by the unions:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;The woodworkers&#8217; union weighed in with its criticism of the state of affairs, alleging that, while small, insolvent workshops were left to struggle as best they could, the collectivization of profitable enterprises was leading to &#8216;nothing other than the creation of two classes; the new rich and the eternal poor. We refuse the idea that there should be rich and poor collectives. And that is the real problem of collectivization&#8217;.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>As would be obvious, before the revolution there was rich and poor capitalist firms. The collectives which were created reflected this. As there were few attempts made at creating federal structures between workplaces to allow for mutual aid it is hardly surprising that many workplaces ended up becoming self-managed cooperatives, looking after their own interests exclusively. However, as we will discuss later, this lack of cooperation between workplaces resulted in the collectives sacrficing their own interests and freedoms in the long run. As, we may point out, predicted in anarchist theory.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It should also be noted that anarchist thinkers have long argued that the transformation of a society, removing the legacy of centuries of hierarchy, oppression and exploitation, would take time. Kropotkin, for example, stressed that anarchists <em>&#8220;do not believe that in any country the Revolution will be accomplished at a stroke, in the twinkling of a eye, as some socialists dream.&#8221;<\/em> Moreover, <em>&#8220;[n]o fallacy more harmful has ever been spread than the fallacy of a &#8216;One-day Revolution.'&#8221;<\/em> [<strong>The Conquest of Bread<\/strong>, p. 81] Bakunin argued that a &#8220;more or less prolonged transitional period&#8221; would <em>&#8220;naturally follow in the wake of the great social crisis&#8221;<\/em> implied by social revolution. [<strong>The Political Philosophy of Bakunin<\/strong>, p. 412] As such, the problems facing the collectives were not unsurprising and, equally unsurprising, the CNT looked into ways of solving them. This is particularly the case as the collectives themselves were not what the CNT had advocated before the revolution and were an unplanned product of the situation the anarchists found themselves in after July 19th.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Therefore, most anarchists would support Malatesta&#8217;s claim that <em>&#8220;[t]o organise a [libertarian] communist society on a large scale it would be necessary to transform all economic life radically, such as methods of production, of exchange and consumption; and all this could not be achieved other than gradually, as the objective circumstances permitted and to the extent that the masses understood what advantages could be gained and were able to act for themselves.&#8221;<\/em> [<strong>Life and Ideas<\/strong>, p. 36] The discussions in the unions James highlights were a part of this process, and express popular participation in the economy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>However, moving on James Donald cites cites Juan Andrade, of the POUM executive (POUM was anti-Stalinist communist, not libertarian socialist) on the nature of the collectives:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;[&#8230;] the collectives were treated as private, not social property [&#8230;]<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;[&#8230;] Had it gone on like that, there would have been enormous problems later, with great disparities of wages and new social classes being formed. We also wanted to collectivize but quite differently [from the libertarian socialists], so that the countries resources were administered socially, not as individual property.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It should be pointed out that the POUM would have nationalised the collectives which would have created its own problems. However, these problems which Andrade mentions were being combated by the CNT and would probably been solved if it had not been for the compromises resulting from collaboration.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>James Donald, in an attempt to prove his point, says that <em>&#8220;In Catalonia, while the libertarian socialists had power, the theaters were initially collectivized, but not socialized, (unlike some other industries) which meant that at first there was a free market in entertainment &#8212; at first the people went to see what they wanted to see, rather than what their masters decided would be good for them to see.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>As the socialised industries were run by democratically elected management committees, it is not a case of <em>&#8220;what their masters decided would be good for them to see&#8221;<\/em> but in fact what the self-managed workplaces decided to put on. As there would be little point in playing to empty theaters, the workforces would have put on what was popular. Yet again, James Donald misrepresents the nature of self-management.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>He continues and presents an example of a singer who gets a pay rise far above the rest of the rest of the theatre staff. He then states that <em>&#8220;if you have liberty, you will not have equality. He [the singer] was able to get 750 pesetas because he was free to leave or to refuse to work as directed, same reason as I get rather good pay today.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>An argument which in no way undermines the anarchist idea of equality. Anarchists desire social equality, not &#8220;equality of outcome&#8221; as such. Many anarchists have expressed support for the idea of equal wages but only when those affected agree to it. In this case, this was not possible but the threater was still run on an egalitarian manner of one worker, one vote.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>He then does on to argue that <em>&#8220;If the workers are free to organize as they choose and use capital as they choose, they will use it for profit, and you will have a free market system that will turn back into capitalism in two or three years &#8212; indeed it only took two or three months for alarmingly powerful signs of capitalism to reappear in Catalonia.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Under capitalism workers are, however, <strong>not<\/strong> free to organise as they choose and use capital as they choose. The capitalists have that particular liberty. Yet again, James Donald indiciates the authoritarian nature of capitalism. As for his claim that if workers are free to organise then capitalism will be the result that is just conjecture on his part. The assumptions are clear. James Donald refuses to take into consideration that cooperation between workplaces can &#8220;profit&#8221; the workers more than competiting together.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>This can be seen from Catalonia, where, because collectives did not cooperate, the Communists managed to gain control of the economy because of their control of credit. The collectives, by acting as James Donald suggests, ended up undermining their own freedom and self-interest. Exactly as happens in capitalism.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>James Donald continues:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;If this problem is solved by &#8216;coordination&#8217; that forcibly prevents them from acting in the way most profitable to each particular person or small group, then you have a single all powerful monopoly state, and it is back to the killing fields, as also happened on a grand scale in Catalonia.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Firstly, we should point out that James Donald&#8217;s account of &#8220;killing fields&#8221; has been discredited and exposed as the nonsense it is. If interested, click <a href=\"#terror\">here<\/a>. However, what <strong>is<\/strong> interesting is that all the examples of terror in Catalonia he gives occured well <strong>before<\/strong> the period being discussed here. In other words, his attempt to suggest that the CNT created a <em>&#8220;single all powerful monopoly state&#8221;<\/em> which killed people <em>&#8220;on a grand scale&#8221;<\/em> is just a lie. He has <strong>no<\/strong> evidence to back this up.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Secondly, anarchists do support the idea of coordination between workplaces but not of the kind James Donald suggests. We argue for a confederation of workplaces which send delegates to conferences to discuss common problems and ensure the maximum profit for all. This was applied to the textile factories of Badlona, for example. This coordination, voluntary accepted, would overcome the problems which face workers under capitalism &#8211; namely, sackings, bad conditions, and so on.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>As capitalism, as noted, does not allow workers to organise freely this obviously suggests that some sort of powerful state is required to enforce the property owners monopoly of power over their capital. Hence, by James&#8217; own logic, capitalism requires a state and powerful hierarchies &#8211; as we see in &#8220;actually existing capitalism.&#8221;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>He then states that <em>&#8220;Some of the anarchists were sincere, and genuinely sought to find a middle course between capitalism on the one hand and killing fields on the other hand.&#8221;<\/em> Again, we have to ask &#8220;what killing fields?&#8221; &#8211; where are these killing fields which James Donald claims the CNT ran? He has presented no evidence of mass murder organised on a vast scale and indeed, he has presented no evidence of murders after September 1936. But, we forget, facts are not important for James Donald (as can be seen from a few <a href=\"#reign\">extracts<\/a> of one debates on usenet recently [May-June, 1996].<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>He then, because he obviously likes the words, states that <em>&#8220;They did not find it, despite vast and varied experimentation both with free markets and with killing fields.&#8221;<\/em> We will just say that repeating falsehoods will not make them true.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>He then states that <em>&#8220;If you permit people to do what they wish to do, then the voting does not count for anything, because the minority simply refuses to comply. If you force people to work at the job by the threat of violence, then the vote also does not count for anything, because people are too frightened to vote in a politically incorrect manner.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Of course, in capitalism you do not have this &#8220;problem&#8221;. This is because workplaces are dictatorships were people are expected just to follow orders or leave. Very libertarian. However, James seems to think that people will always leave if the vote does not go their way. Is everyone that childish? We doubt it. We would suggest that most people would agree to democratic decisions because they took part in deciding them. Sure, they are free to leave but few would in practice. If they don&#8217;t leave everytime their boss makes a decision they don&#8217;t like, they won&#8217;t when their workmates make a similar decision.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>He then states that <em>&#8220;All three of these problems (liberty rendering the vote impotent, violence crushing individual liberty, and an atmosphere of violence perverting the vote) happened in Catalonia. At first the problems were mostly liberty frustrating socialism. Later socialism crushed liberty.&#8221;<\/em> But all his examples of violence occur <strong>before<\/strong> the collectives were created and months before the time he claims &#8220;socialism crushed liberty&#8221;. Funny that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>More importantly, what sort of liberty is James defending here? He claims that democracy is violated by liberty, but surely voluntary democracies are more libertarian than voluntary dictatorships. Is he claiming that capitalism (management by a non-elected elite) is more libertarian than anarchism (management by workplace assemblies and elected managers)? Looks like it &#8211; how <strong>very<\/strong> libertarian!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Perhaps sensing that he is on weak ground, James Donald tries to defend capitalist hiearchy. He states that <em>&#8220;Entrepreneurs do not exercise power because they own capital. They mostly do not. They exercise power over other people&#8217;s capital and other people&#8217;s labor, because they made it pay better than others, so other people chose to put assets in their power, and other people chose to work for them. The shareholders only fire the management when the company is in grave crisis.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In other words, he admits that capitalism is based on a few giving the orders and controling the work of others. In other words, capitalism is based on government, <strong>archy<\/strong>. That someone who claims to be an anarchist supports this is a strange sight. In addition, we should note that as well as controling the labour of workers, the manager also controls the product of their labour and the capital they use. So workers do not control the capital they use and so are <strong>not<\/strong> free. They are controled by others. As an attack on socialism, James Donald has presented more than enough arguments for why capitalism is authoritarian.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Now, he claims that people <strong>choose<\/strong> to work for capitalists. This is not unsurprising because the capitalists have a monopoly over the law in society which protects their private property. This means that working class people have little option <strong>but<\/strong> to get a job. They &#8220;chose&#8221; to work for a capitalist because otherwise they will starve. The capitalist monopoly as expressed in the law ensures that this is the case.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>He then states that <em>&#8220;Collectives, normally in the form of large partnerships, are perfectly consistent with capitalism, and indeed are very common.&#8221;<\/em> Which is totally false. The self-employed make up less than 10% of the working population of a capitalist economy. Cooperatives are by no means &#8220;very common&#8221; precisely because capitalism is set up in a way that ensures the success of authoritarian workplaces run for the profit of capitalists.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Of course, it must be pointed out that capitalism is based on wage labour and so co-operatives are not &#8220;consistent&#8221; with it. Anarchists have argued this since Proudhon. Interestingly, two politically very different people would agree. Karl Marx, for example, argued as follows: <em>&#8220;Let us suppose the workers are themselves in possession of their respective means of production and exchange their commodities with one another. These commodities would not be products of capital.&#8221;<\/em> [<strong>Capital<\/strong>, vol. 3, p. 276] Of course, it could be argued that neither Proudhon, Bakunin nor Marx (being socialists) understood what capitalism and socialism really are. However, the idea that (market) syndicalism was basically the same as capitalism was one rejected by such a noted ideologue of capitalism as Ludwig von Mises. He argued while syndicalism was <em>&#8220;not genuine socialism, that is, centralised socialism,&#8221;<\/em> it would be <em>&#8220;misleading&#8221;<\/em> (as he had previously done in 1920) to call syndicalism workers&#8217; capitalism. [<strong>Socialism<\/strong>, p. 270, p. 274fn] It should be noted that Murray Rothbard, another leading right-\u201clibertarian\u201d, agreed with von Mises. With the end of Stalinism, he argued for the transfer of industry from the state bureaucracy to workers by means of <em>&#8220;private, negotiable shares&#8221;<\/em> as ownership was <em>&#8220;not to be granted to collectives or co-operatives or workers or peasants holistically, which would only bring back the ills of socialism in a decentralised and chaotic syndicalist form.&#8221;<\/em> [<strong>The Logic of Action II<\/strong>, pp. 210-1]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So the notion that cooperatives equals capitalism is one disputed by both socialists (libertarian and authoritarian) <strong>and<\/strong> supporters of capitalism. Something James, strangely, fails to mention&#8230;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Then, in usual James Donald fashion he states that <em>&#8220;I am sure many such partnerships continued to flourish during Pinochet&#8217;s terror, and did not cause him to lose any sleep whatsoever.&#8221;<\/em> However, unions and working class political parties did cause him to lose sleep. Both were crushed by state terror in the pursuit of &#8220;economic liberty&#8221; (i.e. capitalism). Of course, for the working class of Chile Pincohet&#8217;s dictatorship resulted in increased <a href=\"https:\/\/anarchistfaq.org\/afaq\/sectionC.html#secc11a\">poverty<\/a> and <a href=\"https:\/\/anarchistfaq.org\/afaq\/sectionD.html#secd11a\">repression<\/a>, but this must be price for such &#8220;liberty&#8221; for the few.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Notice that he does not mention <em>&#8220;violence crushing individual liberty, and an atmosphere of violence perverting the vote&#8221;<\/em> when he talks about Pincohet&#8217;s Chile. We can easily imagine workers in Chile putting up with bad conditions, pay cuts, etc because they fear that their boss would report them to the secret police as a &#8220;communist.&#8221; However, Pincohet did introduce &#8220;economic liberty&#8221; (for those that count at least&#8230;).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>He then claims that <em>&#8220;if collectives interacted by the free market, as they did at first in Catalonia, some would prosper and some would go broke. To maintain equality during these kinds of free market reorganization, during capitalism&#8217;s creative destruction, to ensure that successful cooperatives did not &#8216;exploit&#8217; other folk by setting onerous conditions before one could become a full partner, would require a vastly powerful central body that would find itself meddling in the fine details of interactions between one person and another and their management of capital.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>That&#8217;s his theory, at least. The practice is different. If collectives did cooperate together to ensure that economic depression and unemployment did not rip society apart, then a &#8220;vastly powerful central body&#8221; is not required. What <strong>is<\/strong> required is dialogue and cooperation between workplaces to ensure that the relevent information is passed between workplaces and that each workplace agrees to mutually share their plant with others. This means that if a worker from one factory in the collectives joins another, they are given equal rights because they are part of the same set of collectives. In other words, James Donald is just repeating the usual nonsense that authoritarians come out with when people try to increase freedom. Of course, James Donald does not follow the logic of his argument through &#8211; if a &#8220;vastly powerful central body&#8221; is required to stop workplaces creating their own rules then such a body is also required to enforce capitalist&#8217;s property rights (otherwise workers would ignore them). Bosses &#8220;meddling in the fine details&#8221; of workers activities and in the management of work are well known and documented (as would be expected in a capitalist system).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>James Donald scare stories aside, we should look at what happened in the socialised woodworkers industry in Catalonia. This should give us a clear example if James Donald&#8217;s comments are true. It should be pointed out that this industry is not an example of socialised production which anarchists necessarily support. As Fraser points out, the FAI proposal of <em>&#8220;autonomous centres of production&#8221;<\/em> was rejected by the majority of the union in favour of <em>&#8220;the union [running] everything&#8221;<\/em> [<strong>Blood of Spain<\/strong>, p. 222]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The result? <em>&#8220;The major failure. . .(and which supported the original anarchist objection) was that the union became like a large firm&#8221;<\/em> <em>&#8220;From the outside it began to look like an American or German trust&#8221;<\/em>[p. 222]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In other words, it ended up looking like the workplaces James Donald thinks express &#8220;liberty&#8221; &#8211; but with an important difference, the workers could elect and and sack their managers as well as a say in the running of th industry. Hence anarchism extends and increases freedom in comparsion to capitalism.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>James claims that <em>&#8220;And once again we are back to actually-existent-socialism.&#8221;<\/em> but, as can be seen, even the most centralised socialised industry became like a capitalist company run by an elected management committee. Which makes his next claim (<em>&#8220;To prevent people from volunteering to be &#8216;exploited&#8217; you have to have a vastly powerful central power with authority to meddle in the petty details of pretty much everything.&#8221;<\/em>) sound pretty silly. In Catalonia, it did not happen inspite of the compromises caused by the war against fascism.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>He ends by saying that:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8221; Now one can reasonably say that much of the bad stuff that happened in Catalonia was done by people who were monsters, not done as a logical consequence of the principles of libertarian socialism, but the reason the monsters were able to take power and act freely is that the those who sincerely believed in libertarian socialism wanted something that was logically impossible, and had no clear idea how to get it, and so they allowed those who knew what they wanted and how to get it to do as they pleased.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It should be asked, what &#8220;monsters&#8221; is James talking about? The anarchists who put their lives on the line fighting the fascist coup? And where is the evidence that these monsters &#8220;took power&#8221; as a result of the socialisation of industry? None whatsoever. In fact, the colectives and the socialisation occured <strong>after<\/strong> the CNT decided to collaborate. Hence there is no relationship between these two events. As we have noted, James Donald presents no evidence linking the leaders of the CNT with &#8220;killing fields&#8221; or any evidence said fields actually existed outside his head.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Now, it could be argued that the CNT introduced socialisation because it say that the collectives were turning into capitalism. However, the socialised industries were <strong>not<\/strong> created by state action but by democratic union decisions. Sometimes when union militants suggested socialisation, the workforce rejected the offer. For example, the workers in the stores refused suggestions to socialise. As Joan Ferrer, secretary of the CNT commercial employees&#8217; union points out:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;It was understandable. Only a few months before, the traditional relationship between employer and worker had been overthrown. Now the workers were being asked to make a new leap &#8211; to the concept of collective ownership. It was a lot to expect the latter to happen overnight&#8221;<\/em> [Op. Cit, p. 220]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Hence, far from introducing &#8220;socialism&#8221; by force, the CNT membership introduced it themselves when they became convinced of the need for it and saw that it was in their interests to do so.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Lastly, we should point out what happened when collectives <strong>did<\/strong> act as James Donald suggests. By <strong>not<\/strong> cooperating together, collectives ended up become run by the state. By <strong>not<\/strong> cooperating together, they ended up <em>&#8220;accepting &#8216;vast sums&#8217; of money against imaginary capital assests from the Generalitat&#8217;s &#8216;pawn bank'&#8221;<\/em> [p.231] which meant <em>&#8220;that many collectives had mortgaged themselves to the Generalitat&#8217;s &#8216;pawn bank&#8217; to pay their workers wages&#8221;<\/em> [p.578] this allowed the PSUC (the stalinists) to <em>&#8220;centralise the collectives under Generalitit (or PSUC) control&#8221;<\/em> [p. 578]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In other words, by acting as &#8220;capitalist&#8221; firms, collectives ended up being controlled by the state. By pursuing that James Donald claims was in their self-interest, they ended up being subjected to a new set of bosses &#8211; state capitalist instead of private capitalist. This little fact neatly exposes the reasons why capitalism is not in our self-interests nor supports freedom, no matter how much James Donald says it does. Anarchism hates capitalism because it leads to the many sacrificing their freedom and denying their self-interest to the few.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So was there capitalism in Catalonia? No, as argued above the workers managed their own workplaces and did not work for a capitalist. What &#8220;capitalistic&#8221; activity which did exist ended up in destroying the freedom of those who practiced them. As anarchists have long argued, cooperation is in our self-interest and encourages liberty far more than competition (even non-capitalist competition!).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a id=\"bait\"><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<h1 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><a id=\"bait\">Bait and Switch in Catalonia?<\/a><\/h1>\n\n\n\n<p>James Donald states that <em>&#8220;Some of the &#8216;anarchists&#8217; justified their exceedingly unanarchist conduct by convoluted rationalizations. Others spoke more plainly. Macario Royo regarded libertarianism as a mere ruse, to disguise the true nature of socialist revolution,&#8221; <\/em>i.e. &#8220;totalitarian,&#8221; according to Donald.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Therefore, in this page James Donald quotes from one CNT member in order to &#8220;prove&#8221; his claim of anarchist &#8220;totalitarianism.&#8221; It&#8217;s interesting that he thinks that the opinion of <strong>one<\/strong> CNT member indicates the &#8220;true nature&#8221; of the Spanish Revolution better than the facts of this revolution, but we will ignore this and analyze his &#8220;case.&#8221;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Firstly, he quotes Ronald Fraser in order to &#8220;set the scene,&#8221; which he thinks involves <em>&#8220;Massive violation of libertarian principles&#8221;.<\/em> Frazer is quoted as follows (<strong>Blood of Spain<\/strong>, page 349):<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;There was no need to dragoon them at pistol point: The coercive climate, in which &#8216;fascists&#8217;; were being shot, was sufficient. &#8216;Spontaneous&#8217;; and &#8216;forced&#8217;; collectives existed, as did willing and unwilling collectivists within them.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;Forced collectivization ran counter to libertarian ideals. Anything that was forced could not be libertarian. Obligatory collectivization was justified, in some libertarians eyes, by a reasoning closer to war communism than to libertarian communism: The need to feed the columns at the front. Macario Royo, an Aragonese CNT leader, believed that collectives were the most appropriate organization for ensuring that a surplus was made available for the front.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Firstly, it should be noted that Fraser is actually talking about Aragon, <strong>not<\/strong> Catalonia. It should also be noted that Aragon was where the <strong>Front Line<\/strong> was. Funny that Donald does not mention this. Does he seriously expect a war zone in the middle of a civil war <strong>not<\/strong> to have a &#8220;coercive climate&#8221;?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Non-ideologically driven people can easily see that in a civil war against Fascism there would be a &#8220;coercive climate.&#8221; That Donald is blind to it is an excellent indication of his objectivity and how he presents his &#8220;evidence.&#8221; Given that he maintains that General Pinochet&#8217;s military dictatorship introduced &#8220;economic liberty,&#8221; he has few grounds to bemoan violence taking place during a civil war.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Secondly, Fraser states that the CNT militia did <strong>not<\/strong> force anyone into collectives. However, Fraser states that &#8220;spontaneous&#8221; and &#8220;forced&#8221; collectives existed side by side. Now, according to Fraser&#8217;s own book, the number of &#8220;total&#8221; collectives was less than 20. We can safely assume that &#8220;total&#8221; collectives were &#8220;forced&#8221; ones. On page 366 of <strong>Blood of Spain<\/strong>, a FAI schoolteacher points out that forced collectivisation <em>&#8220;wasn&#8217;t a widespread problem, because there weren&#8217;t more than twenty or so villages where collectivisation was total and no one was allowed to remain outside&#8230;&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Frazer does not correct this figure, so we can say that of the 450 collectives in Aragon, 95% were voluntary or &#8220;spontaneous.&#8221; This does not fit in well with Donald&#8217;s claims of &#8220;forced collectivisation&#8221; by anarchists.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>As for the claim that there were &#8220;unwilling&#8221; collectivists in the collectives: again, this is undoubtably true. We are sure some people joined &#8220;just to be on the safe side.&#8221; The question is how safe did people feel? Was the &#8220;coercive climate&#8221; caused by the war so bad that most people felt they had no choice but to join? The answer is clear. According to Bolloten&#8217;s figures, about 70% of the population of Aragon were in the collectives. This is approxmately 300,000 people out of a population of around 450,000. In other words, 30% of the population felt safe enough <strong>not<\/strong> to join. This would hardly be the case if the CNT militia had terrorised Aragon and imposed collectives on them. Historian Antony Beevor (while noting that there <em>&#8220;had undoubtedly been pressure, and no doubt force was used on some occasions in the fervour after the rising&#8221;<\/em>) just stated the obvious when he wrote that<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>These two facts indicate that &#8220;forced collectivisation&#8221; did not in fact occur in Aragon. The collectives were <strong>not<\/strong> created by anarchist &#8220;terror,&#8221; and people did not have to join a collective. So much for James Donald&#8217;s claims.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Thirdly, it should be noted that Fraser states that <em>&#8220;obligatory collectivisation was justified, in some libertarian&#8217;s eyes, by a reasoning closer to war communism than to libertarian communism.&#8221;<\/em> This raises the question, did obligatory collectivisation occur? According to the figures Fraser gives, 180,000 people joined collectives. It should be noted that this figure is far too small, but it is the one Fraser builds his argument on. The population of Aragon was nearly half a million. Therefore, according to Frazer&#8217;s own figures, &#8220;obligatory collectivisation&#8221; did not occur. If only about half of the population belonged to collectives, it&#8217;s obvious they were <strong>not<\/strong> obligatory.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Therefore, from the facts we get a very different picture of the one presented by James Donald.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ignoring these facts, Donald continues to quote Royo as <em>&#8220;speaking in favor of forced collectivization&#8221;<\/em> by saying the following:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;If each peasant had kept what he produced and disposed of it as he wished, it would have made the matter of supply much more difficult.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>However, as is clear from <strong>Blood of Spain<\/strong>, Royo is talking about <strong>collectives<\/strong> and <strong>not<\/strong> &#8220;forced collectivisation&#8221; as Donald claims he is. He is explaining why, given the need to feed the troops at the Front Line, it was better if collectives were created.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Then he quotes Fraser&#8217;s paraphrase of Macario Royo:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;And revolution always meant imposing the will of an armed minority &#8216;In this case an anarcho syndicalist minority&#8217;;&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>James Donald then quotes Macario Royo at length from a footnote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;Revolutions are made by force. Everything that is imposed by force has to be maintained by force. The outcome may be communism but it is not libertarian. If it were, it would not be communist, for the simple reason that the mass of the people are not communist. Libertarian communism could be established only if the majority of the people already supported communism and then started to organize that communism freely.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Donald then says that <em>&#8220;Royo says twice, in two different ways, that the &#8216;anarchists&#8217; were a minority that imposed their will on the majority by force.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Pretty damning, eh, the <strong>opinion<\/strong> of <strong>one<\/strong> CNT member? There are other CNT members who gave the <strong>opposite<\/strong> opinion, namely that the collectives were <strong>not<\/strong> imposed by a minority. But opinions get us nowhere. Let&#8217;s look at the facts.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>As noted above, Fraser indicates that the collectives were <strong>not<\/strong> created by the CNT militia. As he points out, <em>&#8220;Very rapidly collectives. . . began to spring up. It did not happen on instructions from the CNT leadership &#8212; no more than had the collectives in Barcelona.&#8221;<\/em> [<strong>Blood of Spain<\/strong>, page 349] As indicated above, 95% of the collectives were voluntary and 30% of the population of Aragon felt safe enough <strong>not<\/strong> to join. This indicates their popular nature &#8212; they were not created by the orders of the CNT leadership.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>As an example of &#8220;forced collectivisation&#8221; by an &#8220;armed minority,&#8221; this &#8220;proof&#8221; leaves a lot to be desired. In other words, James Donald bases his case on the opinion of <strong>one<\/strong> CNT member. What the actual facts show is that the CNT membership of Aragon (who were a minority) took the opportunity given by the destruction of the state to suggest the creation of collectives (something they had been arguing for before the revolution). The majority of the population decided to join and a large minority stayed outside. If the collectives <strong>had<\/strong> been created by an &#8220;armed minority,&#8221; then everyone would have joined and all the collectives would have been &#8220;total.&#8221; This did not happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>James Donald, after <strong>not<\/strong> proving his case, goes to to state that <em>&#8220;most modern &#8216;anarcho&#8217;-socialists seem to find the minority part vastly more embarassing than the force part, though real anarchists do not care whether it is the majority imposing its will by force or the minority. Honest peaceful people should be left alone, regardless of their numbers.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>As indicated, the collectives were not imposed by force. Fraser explicitly states this in at least two places. What violence that did occur was directly attributable to the fact that a civil war against Fascism was being conducted and one of the front lines was in Aragon. Donald is correct, of course, that real anarchists do not wish the majority to impose its will on a non-oppressive minority (real anarchists, however, consider it essential to overthrow capitalism because in capitalism a minority controls the majority). As can be seen from the experiences of the collectives, the minority were left peacefully alone and felt safe enough <strong>not<\/strong> to join.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>While not strictly relevent to this discussion, it should be noted that James Donald thinks that military coups are &#8220;justified&#8221; in some cases, and most importantly, has said that Pincohet&#8217;s military dictatorship in Chile introduced &#8220;economic liberty.&#8221; It is therefore appropriate to question Donald&#8217;s actual concern for minority or majority rights or his horror of violence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Seeking to back up his claims, he goes on to quote Juan Peiro, another CNT militant who, Doanld claims, <em>&#8220;unlike Macario Royo, seems unhappy about this betrayal of libertarian ideals.&#8221;<\/em> He then quotes Burnett Bolloton in <strong>The Grand Camouflage<\/strong> in order to <em>&#8220;set the context for Juan Peiro&#8217;s remarks&#8221;<\/em>:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;Although CNT-FAI publications cited numerous cases of peasant proprietors and tenant farmers who had adhered voluntarily to the collective system there can be no doubt that an incomparably larger number doggedly opposed it or accepted it only under extreme duress.&#8221;<\/em> [Page 70]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Very true. However, James presents a very false picture of what was happening in the countryside at this time. As Bolloten himself points out, <em>&#8220;If the individual farmer viewed with dismay the swift and widespread collectivisation of agriculture, the farm workers of the Anarchosyndicalist CNT and the Socialist UGT saw it as the commencement of a new era.&#8221;<\/em> [<strong>The Spanish Civil War<\/strong>, p. 63] Both these organisations had large memberships, totalling hundreds of thousands. The CNT had 30,000 members in Aragon alone and the UGT Land Workers Federation had 500,000 members. Both these unions supported the collectives.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Therefore to suggest that the claim that <strong>all<\/strong> the inhabitants of the countryside opposed the collective system is false. Of course, if one considers only the interests of property owners as important then obviously the popular nature of the collectives can easily be ignored. The question arises, though, why this should be the case? However, as Bolloten himself points out, <em>many of the 450 collectives of the region were voluntary,&#8221;<\/em> [page 74] and the figures presented by Fraser back this up. This means that those who opposed the collectives were <strong>not<\/strong> forced to join them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Donald then quotes Bolloten again, Page 72:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;As a consequence, the fate of the peasant owner and tenant farmer in the communities occupied by the CNT-FAI militia was determined from the outset; for although a meeting of the population was generally held to decide on the establishment of the collective system, the vote was always taken by acclamation, and the presence of armed militiamen never failed to impose respect and fear on all opponents.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Again, we should point out that 95% of collectives were voluntary and as Fraser notes, the militia did not force people to join them. Of course, there can be no denying that the collectivists often refused to provide the benefits of the collectives to non-members and that they often prevented non-members from hiring labour to work their fields. However, as a supporter of capitalism James Donald would be the last to suggest that companies should be forced to give their profits to others or that individuals should ignore tresspassing laws and squat unused land.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>That economic pressures often &#8220;forced&#8221; peasants to join a collective is true. However, economic pressures also &#8220;force&#8221; workers to work for a capitalist. At least the collectives were democratic and based on self-management. Therefore, as an example of the collectives&#8217; anti-anarchist nature, such pressures make a pretty weak case. And the question again arises why a minority of property owners should determine what the rules are and not the majority?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So how popular were the collectives? Bolloten sums up the rural revolution as follows:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;But in spite of the cleavages between doctrine and practice that plagued the Spanish Anarchists whenever they collided with the realities of power, it cannot be overemphasized that notwithstanding the many instances of coercion and violence, the revolution of July 1936 distinguished itself from all others by the generally spontaneous and far-reaching character of its collectivist movement and by its promise of moral and spiritual renewal. Nothing like this spontaneous movement had ever occurred before&#8221;<\/em> [page 78]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&#8220;Spontaneous&#8221; movements are <strong>not<\/strong> created by an armed minority. In addition, as we have indicated <a href=\"#serf\">elsewhere<\/a> the collectives were run by mass assemblies and elected committees. An &#8220;armed minority&#8221; imposing a revolution does not create democratically run organisations based on free debate and elected officials.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Lastly, James Donald attempts to show that the collectives were created by an &#8220;armed minority&#8221; by quoting Juan Peiro, one of the leaders of the CNT, writing in Libertat, September 29, 1936:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;Does anyone believe. . .that through acts of violence an interest in or a desire for socialization can be awakened in the minds of the peasantry? Or perhaps that by terrorizing it in this fashion it can be won over to the revolutionary spirit prevailing in the towns and cities?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;The gravity of the mischief that is being done compels me to speak clearly. . . . The first thing they have done has been to take away from the peasant all means of self defense. . .and having achieved this they have robbed him even of his shirt.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;If today you should go to different parts of Catalonia to speak to the peasant of revolution, he will tell you he does not trust you, he will tell you the standard-bearers of the revolution have <strong>already passed through<\/strong> the countryside: In order to liberate it? In order to help it liberate itself? No. They <strong>have passed through the countryside<\/strong> in order to rob those who throughout the years and throughout the centuries have been robbed by the very persons who have just been defeated by the revolution.&#8221;<\/em> [Emphasis added]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Firstly, Peiro is discussing Catalonia (not Aragon) and it&#8217;s very clear that he is <strong>not<\/strong> attacking the creation of collectives. He is arguing, in line with CNT policy, against the use of force and indicating its self-defeating nature. The end part of the quote clearly indicates that Peiro is condemning the uncontrolled requisitioning of food and weapons by the militias as they went to the front (i.e. &#8220;passing through the countryside&#8221;), not referring to &#8220;forced collectivisation&#8221;. This requisitioning was a real problem and the CNT did its best to stop it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Now, the question arises: is the picture James Donald is trying to paint with this quote an accurate one? Did the CNT create forced collectives in Catalonia (as proved, they did not in Aragon)? The answer is to be found in the facts. Fraser does not mention any examples of forced collectivisation in Catalonia. He even points out that collectivisation was less widespread in Catalonia compared to other parts of Spain. The figures speak for themselves &#8212; 450 collectives in Aragon, 80 in Catalonia (figures from Leval&#8217;s <strong>Collectives in the Spanish Revolution<\/strong>. These Catalonian collectives were surrounded by an ocean of smallholders and were the exception to the rule. In other words, &#8220;forced collectivisation&#8221; was not conducted in Catalonia either.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Do not get us wrong. We are sure that when the militias passed through Catalonia, &#8220;acts of violence&#8221; did occur and requisitioning did take place. We are also sure that some CNT members acted against CNT policy in some locations and in <strong>some<\/strong> villages forced peasants to join. We do not think that every member of the CNT acted in an anarchist manner. However, the CNT itself argued against such abuses by &#8220;irresponsible elements&#8221; and acted to stop them. A few local &#8220;excesses&#8221; do not paint a picture of the CNT creating &#8220;actually existing socialism.&#8221;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>That the CNT was successful in controlling these &#8220;irresponsible elements&#8221; in Catalonia is indicated by the fact that collectivisation was less widespread than elsewhere in Republican Spain. In other words, those 80 collectives that did exist were created by CNT and UGT rural labourers on the land of pro-fascist big land owners, and the majority of the peasant population seized the land they worked but did not own. Given that James Donald considers that the CNT created a state in Catalonia, run by the leaders of the CNT, this fact further weakens his case. If Catalonia <strong>was<\/strong> ruled by the &#8220;masters&#8221; of the CNT you would think that collectivisation would have been more widespread than elsewhere in Spain. It was not.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, to conclude, what does James Donald&#8217;s &#8220;evidence&#8221; amount to? The opinion of <strong>one<\/strong> member of the CNT, which is not backed up by the facts, and the argument of a CNT member for <strong>all<\/strong> CNT members to follow CNT policy. The facts indicate a drastically different picture of what happened from the one James Donald tries to construct round these two quotes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a id=\"incent\">Labor Incentives in Catalonia<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Here we see James Donald trying to prove that the self-managed collectives created in Catalonia were &#8220;really&#8221; like &#8220;actually existing socialism.&#8221;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Of course, this may prove to be difficult for James. After all, there are plenty of examples of how democratic the collectives were, but we will say this for him, he tries.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>He claims that <em>&#8220;the basic difference between socialism and capitalism&#8221;<\/em> is that <em>&#8220;under capitalism people are free to pursue their own individual good, whereas under socialism some wise and good folk must compel them to serve the greater good.&#8221;<\/em> While these may be James Donald&#8217;s ideas on the subject, it most definitely is not those of anarchists.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Simply put, for anarchists <strong>capitalism<\/strong> is marked by the crushing of the individual in order to serve some &#8220;greater good.&#8221; In particular, this greater good is the company for which one works, and in general, the economy. In other words, instead of managing your own work directly for your own benefit, under capitalism you work for a boss and follow the boss&#8217;s orders. The idea that capitalism is based on <strong>all<\/strong> &#8220;individuals pursuing their own individual good&#8221; is not true in practice &#8212; it actually results in the few living off the labour of others. As the example of Catalonia shows, the workers there jumped at the chance to manage their own labour and to stop working for capitalists. Free people will not work for capitalists.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Theory aside, James Donald attempts to &#8220;prove&#8221; his case empirically by citing Ronald Fraser&#8217;s <strong>Blood of Spain<\/strong>, page 218. Here Fraser refers to Luis Santacana and says that Santacana <em>&#8220;boasts of achieving a wage cut of privileged workers&#8221;<\/em>, quoting him as saying:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;That was magnificent. Achieved without any violence on our part.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>However, looking at the page in question we discover the following information directly <strong>before<\/strong> this quote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;Because of economic difficulties, it was impossible to raise wages; instead, the technicians and staff were asked to lower theirs. They replied by proposing a 20 per cent cut.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>This puts the quote in a slightly different light. As can be seen, the &#8220;privileged workers&#8221; were asked to lower their wages and proposed the cut themselves. However, ignoring this, Donald goes on to make the following comment:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;One does not hear capitalists boasting that violence was unnecessary in order persuade workers to work for a lower wage.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>But one <strong>does<\/strong> hear of capitalists using violence in order to break strikes which result from lowering of wages or the sacking of workers. To take a classic example from the days of &#8220;free market&#8221; capitalism, many miners in the USA were murdered by private cops employed by the coal companies to break strikes. Or, using an example closer to Spain, in the 1920s capitalists hired gunmen to assassinate CNT union militants who were fighting for workers&#8217; interests and against pay cuts and sackings (these assassinations in part explains the popular violence against many capitalists after July 19th, 1936).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Therefore, James Donald&#8217;s attempts to indicate that capitalism does not display a &#8220;violent&#8221; nature in connection with enforcing the power of the wealthy has a few problems.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>He then states that the <em>&#8220;above remark implies that during the &#8216;negotiations&#8217; the workers knew or suspected that if they refused to work at a lower rate, violence by Luis Santacana&#8217;s men was a real possibility.&#8221;<\/em> The remark, however, implies nothing of the kind. Firstly, Santacana was, like the others on the factory committe, directly elected by the workers in the workplace and he was subject to recall by that workforce. Both techicians and staff each had two representatives on the council. And this elected workers&#8217; council was held accountable to a general assembly of the workforce. We doubt that the workforce would have allowed Santacana to have become such a tyrant.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In addition, looking at the context of the quote James Donald provides, it&#8217;s clear that the &#8220;privileged workers&#8221; themselves proposed the amount of their own pay cut. If Santacana was the tyrant Donald claims he was, the pay cut would have been imposed by him without discussion. Therefore, the above remark does not refer to a possible threat of violence, but instead suggests that Santacana wanted to emphasise that, <strong>unlike capitalism<\/strong>, violence or coercion was not used to get the pay cut. He was proud of the cooperative spirit which motivated the &#8220;privileged workers&#8221; and wanted to make sure that no-one thought the CNT had coerced them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Looking over the rest of Santacana&#8217;s account, we see even more evidence to put Donald&#8217;s case into doubt. Firstly, Santacana supported the idea of a &#8220;single wage,&#8221; but it was not <em>&#8220;introduced into his plant because it was not made general through the industry.&#8221;<\/em> If Santacana <strong>was<\/strong> running the collective by &#8220;force,&#8221; why was the single wage not introduced? Moreover, he notes that <em>&#8220;the technical section was asked to put forward a new candiate&#8221;<\/em> to run the plant on a day-to-day basis [p. 219]. And they suggested a weaving technician who was duly accepted. One hardly asks those who one is coercing by the threat of force to suggest one&#8217;s &#8220;managing director&#8221;!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Santacana actually does discuss how discipline in the factory was maintained. As he points out, <em>&#8220;there were people who lacked self-discipline, a consciousness of what was demanded of them&#8221;<\/em> and gives the example of a mechanic who stole a spanner. Was this mechanic subjected to violence? No, Santacana threatened to write his full name on a blackboard and inform the whole workplace why the mechanic was being moved to a new section. This threat of public notification of his fellow workers was enough. Hardly &#8220;the threat of force&#8221; which James Donald suggests was the means used to run the collective.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>As is clear from Santacana&#8217;s account of the collective in which he worked, it was a democratically managed workplace based on general assemblies of the workforce and an elected management committee and foremen &#8212; a somewhat different picture than the one James Donald suggests by the two sentences he quotes from this account. It&#8217;s funny that he does not mention these minor facts.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Moreover, Santacana&#8217;s is <strong>one<\/strong> viewpoint. It could be that James Donald is correct that he was a petty tyrant. The evidence for this, as can be seen, is very slim. But even if it were true, what does it prove about the revolution? Nothing. Santacana&#8217;s was <strong>one<\/strong> collective out of thousands, and neither Fraser nor Bolloten suggest that workplace tyranny was commonplace. One event (which did not involve violence!) out of a 600-page book is hardly strong evidence on which to build an argument.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Moving on, Donald quotes Ronald Fraser again, page 216, and Andreu Capdevilla, CNT militant, claiming that Capdevilla was <em>&#8220;first promoted as boss of a textile factory, then later promoted to acting president of the economics council.&#8221;<\/em> To quickly correct a usual James Donald slander, it should be noted that Capdevilla was elected to his factory&#8217;s committee by his fellow workers with whom he worked. As Capdevila points out, his collective was created after a general assembly of the workforce decided to do it. He noticed that <em>&#8220;the moment the factory was collectivised and there were general assemblies, everyone started to talk.&#8221;<\/em>[p. 214] <em>&#8220;Everyone wanted to say what he or she thought and felt. They obviously felt themselves in charge now and with the right to speak for themselves. . . .&#8221;<\/em> [pp. 213-214]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So it can hardly be said that he was &#8220;promoted as boss&#8221; in this case. However, it <strong>is<\/strong> true that Capdevilla was appointed to his post on the Economics Council. Who appointed him? The CNT regional committee, an elected committee held accountable to the CNT membership by regular plenums of elected delegates. This, of course, is not perfect, nor is it something which anarchists suggest as normal working practice. However, as we will indicate below, it was the result of the compromises that the CNT had made in the name of anti-fascist unity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>We should point out that Capdevilla was <strong>not<\/strong> the &#8220;manager of the textile industry&#8221; but acting president of the Economics Council. This Council, as can be seen, <strong>did not<\/strong> play an extensive role in the management of the collectivised workplaces. The textile industry was run, as indicated, by elected works committees and general assemblies.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>As for the Economics Council itself, this body was the product of the compromises the CNT had to make because it refused to carry out the social revolution. As Fraser points out, it <em>&#8220;was doubtful that the CNT had seriously envisaged collectivisation of industry. . .before this time.&#8221;<\/em> [p. 212] As an eyewitness pointed out, <em>&#8220;The CNT&#8217;s policy was thus not the same as that pursued by the [collectivisation] decree.&#8221;<\/em> [p. 213] Indeed, leading anarchists like Abed de Santillan opposed it and urged people to ignore it: <em>&#8220;I was an enemy of the decree because I considered it premature. . .when I became councilor, I had no intention of taking into account or carrying out the decree: I intended to allow our great people to carry on the task as they best saw fit, according to their own inspiration.&#8221;<\/em> [p. 212] Therefore, as Bolloten points out, <em>&#8220;It is no wonder then that the decree was never vigorously enforced [and ]that there were numerous violations&#8221;<\/em> [<strong>The Spanish Civil War<\/strong>,p. 224]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So its clear that the Council was not as &#8220;powerful&#8221; as James Donald implies. As is clear from <strong>Blood of Spain<\/strong>, the Council was mostly ignored by the collectives and the CNT itself did not support it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>However, Capdevilla says that:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>&#8220;The real problem was the possibilities of corruption an official position offered: [&#8230;] the women who came in attempts to save their husbands or brothers [and offered to sleep with him] I threw them out.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>James Donald then states that <em>&#8220;Capdevilla is not a CNT cop, or a CNT prison guard, but a CNT economics guy and manager of the textile industry. Nobody goes to the manager of apple and begs him to save their husbands or brothers, though they may beg for a high promotion and a sinecure.&#8221;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Well, I&#8217;m sure that if, as James Donald wants, Apple could hire their own cops and exercise &#8220;absolute&#8221; power over their property, this could change. The many examples of companies hiring private cops to enforce management decisions have quite accuratly been described as &#8220;feudalism.&#8221;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>This example does, however, point to a problem that existed, though not the one Donald alleges. It does <strong>not<\/strong> show that Capdevilla had &#8220;absolute&#8221; power over life and death in Catalonia, as Donald claims. For consider the context: suspected Fascists are being arrested and given trials. Some are sentenced to death and their wives and sisters attempt to save them by influencing those who they considered influential people &#8212; people like Capdevilla in &#8220;offical&#8221; posts. This does not mean that Capdevilla had ordered these people arrested or shot. Moreover he refused to compromise his principles with these women and &#8220;threw them out his office.&#8221;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Nevertheless, existence of such &#8220;official posts&#8221; is one of the unanarchist aspects of the revolution. It was the result of the compromises the CNT made in the name of anti-fascist unity. The CNT did not desire to alienate the other unions and parties which had also took part in the resistance to Fascism. Little wonder the resulting compromises took on forms which reflected the ideas of all those involved, not just the CNT. As Capdevilla points out, these concessions happened <em>&#8220;because of our original concession; from the moment Companys offered the CNT power and it was turned down, the CNT&#8217;s position became tragic.&#8221;<\/em> [p. 215]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>James Donald finishes by saying that <em>&#8220;in addition Capdevilla was not elected to his powerful posts, he was appointed from above.&#8221;<\/em> This is only partly true. Firstly, Capdevilla was elected to his position in his factory&#8217;s management committee by his fellow workers. Hence, at the grass roots level the self-managed workplaces were democratic. He was, nevertheless, appointed to his position in the Economic Council by the regional committee of the CNT. However, as James Donald himself points out, the state still existed in Catalonia &#8212; the CNT had placed their revolution &#8220;on hold&#8221; until the Civil War finished.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The CNT <strong>can<\/strong> and <strong>should<\/strong> be blamed for the compromises it made, and so for the &#8220;offical posts&#8221; that were created by these compromises. But to attempt to suggest anarchist &#8220;totalitarianism&#8221; because the CNT cooperated with other parties and compromised their principles staggers belief.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Therefore, to summarise, James Donald&#8217;s argument on the &#8220;violent&#8221; and &#8220;totalitarian&#8221; nature of the Catalonian collectives can be seen, on closer inspection, to be <strong>false<\/strong>. As indicated, the collectives were democratically run and based on workforce assemblies and elected management committees. As for the alleged powers of Capdevilla, we have shown that they are not what James Donald suggests they are. In addition, we have indicated that whatever &#8220;offical posts&#8221; were created in Catalonia were the result <strong>not<\/strong> of anarchist principles or ideas but, on the contrary, were the result of <strong>not<\/strong> applying those ideas.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In other words, James Donald attacks the results of the CNT <strong>not<\/strong> applying its ideas. We agree. Where the CNT <strong>did<\/strong> apply its ideas (namely in the self-managed collectives), they proved to be quite successful. Unfortunately, its compromises with other forces led to the social revolution being distorted and, ultimately, to defeat. This is discussed in more detail <a href=\"#govern\">here<\/a> and <a href=\"#capital\">here<\/a>.<a id=\"appendix\"><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<h1 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><a id=\"appendix\"><strong>Appendix: James Donald and Noam Chomsky<\/strong><\/a><\/h1>\n\n\n\n<p>This article has been added as an appendix to James&#8217; nonsense on Spain in order to get a better grasp of his technique and to better judge the reliability of his attacks on Spanish anarchism. For, as well as wilfully distorting the history of Spain and the activities of Spanish Anarchists, it should be noted that James Donald has done the same to <a href=\"http:\/\/www.chomsky.info\/\">Noam Chomsky<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In fact, it is no exaggeration that his hatred of Chomsky is pathological, as can be seen from Dan Clore&#8217;s masterful exposure of his nonsense <a href=\"#jamesd\"><strong>Contortions at First Hand &#8212; James Donald vs Noam Chomsky<\/strong><\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The essay focuses, in the main, on Donald trying to prove that Chomsky somehow supported Pol Pot (people interested in this issue should read the 1985 essay <a href=\"https:\/\/web.archive.org\/web\/20040808065144\/http:\/\/chomsky.info\/onchomsky\/1985----.htm\"><strong>The Chorus and Cassandra<\/strong><\/a> by Christopher Hitchens).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a id=\"jamesd\"><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><a id=\"jamesd\">Contortions at First Hand:<br>James Donald on Noam Chomsky<\/a><\/h2>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">by Dan Clore<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" \/>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>The reaction to the exposure is also instructive: on the Timor half of the comparison, further silence, denial, and apologetics; on the Cambodia half, a great chorus of protest claiming that we were denying or downplaying Pol Pot atrocities. This was a transparent falsehood, though admittedly the distinction between advocating that one try to keep to the truth and downplaying the atrocities of the official enemy is a difficult one for the mind of the commissar, who, furthermore, is naturally infuriated by any challenge to the right to lie in the service of the state, particulary when it is accompanied by a demonstration of the services rendered to ongoing atrocities. (Noam Chomsky, <em>Deterring Democracy<\/em>.)<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>When one considers some of the elaborate forgeries that have been committed in order to show that Trotsky did not play a valuable part in the Russian civil war, it is difficult to feel that the people responsible are merely lying. More probably, they feel that their own version <em>was<\/em> what happened in the sight of God, and that one is justified in rearranging the records accordingly. (George Orwell, &#8220;Notes on Nationalism&#8221;, on the Stalinist press.)<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>This material on this page springs from debates on UseNet with one James A. Donald (or, in the orthography he seems to prefer, &#8220;James A. donald&#8221;) over the alleged dishonesty of the work of Edward Herman (who for some reason always disappears from the debate, whenever James Donald can manage it) and Noam Chomsky on Cambodia and the Khmer Rouge. Since Donald simply follows the technique of the Nazi&#8217;s &#8220;big lie&#8221;, or the logical fallacy <em>argumentum ad nauseam<\/em> (repeating over and over what has long since been proven false on many occasions, as if repetition will somehow give it credibility), a summary seems in order. (Donald has been at this for at least five years now.) Donald&#8217;s arguments primarily concern a 1977 book review published in the <em>Nation<\/em>, which is at:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/chomsky.info\/19770625\/\">http:\/\/206.9.170.150\/archive\/articles\/7706-distortions.html<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Also important to the debate are the two volumes of Herman and Chomsky&#8217;s <em>The Political Economy of Human Rights<\/em>, which are <em>The Washington Connection and Third World Fascism<\/em> and <em>After the Cataclysm: Postwar Indochina and the Reconstruction of Imperial Ideology<\/em>, both published by South End Press in 1979. The will here usually be referred to by the common abbreviations <em>PEHR<\/em> I and <em>PEHR<\/em> II.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Donald&#8217;s arguments are summarized in an essay at his site, eloquently titled &#8220;Chomsky lies&#8221;:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>http:\/\/www.jim.com\/jamesd\/chomsdis.htm<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Refutations of similar idiocies on James Donald&#8217;s part can be found at:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"#blood\">http:\/\/www.geocities.com\/CapitolHill\/2374\/blood.html<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Because Mr. Donald would like to turn this debate into a mere series of personal attacks on Chomsky, I have not hesitated to include personal attacks on Mr. Donald. If he dislikes this, then he can simply drop his constant <em>ad hominems<\/em> from the debate. Meanwhile, the rest of us can enjoy laughing at his buffoonish behavior.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" \/>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Contents<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" \/>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"#nutshell\">James Donald&#8217;s Argument in a Nutshell<\/a><br><a href=\"#honest\">James Donald on Honesty and the Lack Thereof<\/a>.<br><a href=\"#shift\">James Donald Shifts his Ground<\/a>.<br><a href=\"#tune\">On Changing One&#8217;s Tune (To be PC)<\/a>.<br><a href=\"#medbias\">Media Bias<\/a>.<br><a href=\"#gooks\">Mere Gooks<\/a>.<br><a href=\"#apol\">James Donald: Lying Apologist for Mass Murder<\/a>.<br><a href=\"#faur\">L&#8217;affaire Faurisson<\/a>.<br><a href=\"#exchange\">An Interesting Exchange<\/a>.<br><a href=\"#liar\">Donald vs. Donald<\/a>.<br><a href=\"#caught\">James Donald &#8212; Caught Lying<\/a>.<br><a href=\"#parod\">The Lying Liar Chomsky Lies: A New James Donald Rant Parody<\/a>.<br><a href=\"#rai\">UseNet Post from Milan Rai&#8217;s <em>Chomsky&#8217;s Politics<\/em><\/a>.<br><a href=\"#links\">Relevant Links<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>This Page is not necessarily in a final form and may be updated. But you knew that already, didn&#8217;t you?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a id=\"nutshell\"><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" \/>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">James Donald&#8217;s Argument in a Nutshell<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" \/>\n\n\n\n<p>James Donald&#8217;s argument on Noam Chomsky&#8217;s honesty can be summarized like this:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>In the ordinary sense of the word, Noam Chomsky is not a liar, because what he says is true. However, if you re-define the word &#8220;lie&#8221; to include making true statements that James Donald does not like for some reason, then &#8212; under the new definition &#8212; Noam Chomsky is a liar.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><a id=\"honest\"><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" \/>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">James Donald on Honesty and the Lack Thereof<br>(Also, Giving Sources)<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" \/>\n\n\n\n<p>James Donald begins his attempted essay thus:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>I have reproduced this work by Chomsky and Herman to show that nothing Chomsky says can be believed, and to illustrated [sic] his methods of deceiving his readers.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>It should be noted that James Donald, brave &#8220;defender of property rights&#8221; that he is, has actually <em>stolen<\/em> this essay from Herman and Chomsky. He did not purchase the rights to this book review from them, but instead blatantly violated their copyright and appropriated their property for his own purposes. If he had merely wanted his readers to see the entire article, he could have simply provided a link to it at the <a href=\"https:\/\/chomsky.info\/articles\/\">Noam Chomsky Archives<\/a>. Instead, he chose to act as a thief. Indeed, for some strange reason, he gives no links to Chomsky sources at all.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>He goes on to explain his conception of Chomsky&#8217;s supposed dishonesty:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>When Chomsky lies, he does not say plainly in so many words &#8220;X is true&#8221;, instead he uses convoluted, indirect, and lawyer like sentences that lead the reader to believe that X is true, and that Chomsky has presented a well documented case that X is true, supported by copious citations of reputable sources, whereas in fact not only do the numerous sources that Chomsky quotes say nothing of the kind, indeed they usually forcefully deny X, <em>but also Chomsky himself has not actually said X in so many words<\/em>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>If Chomsky believed what he seeks to persuade the reader to believe, he would not have used such elaborately careful and evasive phrasing.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>In other words, Chomsky has not lied by saying what Donald wishes that he had said (so that Donald could abuse him for saying it). Instead, he lied by <em>not<\/em> making the supposed claims that Donald attributes to him. You have to admire someone so devious in his dishonesty.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>For example:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>If you read the article below very carefully you will find that Chomsky does not actually say in so many words that the Khmer Rouge was similar to the French resistance, he merely leads the reader to believe it.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>It would be interesting to know how Herman and Chomsky &#8220;leads [sic] the reader to believe&#8221; this, since there is no mention of the French Resistance at any point in the article. When we see the actual passage that Donald is referring to, we find that Herman and Chomsky were not referring to the French Resistance at all, but to &#8220;France after liberation&#8221;, an entirely different matter. French historian Robert Aron has documented the period, finding that massacres of collaborators and alleged collaborators took place for months after the liberation. Aron gives an estimated <em>minimum<\/em> of 30-40,000 slain in these mass killings, with the total probably greater (<em>France Reborn: The History of the Liberation<\/em>, Scribner&#8217;s 1964); others give higher figures, such as Pleyber-Grandjean, who claims that seven million were massacred. If his political allegiances were slightly different, no doubt Donald would accept the latter figure and accuse all who questioned it of being &#8220;lying apologists for mass murder, tyranny, and brutal inequalities of power&#8221;.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>He does not actually say that tales of mass murder are all a bunch of evil capitalist lies, he merely contemptuously condemns and ridicules those who tell the truth about Cambodia, while praising to the sky the (often entirely imaginary) sources that deny democide in Cambodia.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>How well this statement reflects the facts can be seen by merely comparing it to Herman and Chomsky&#8217;s article and their other work on Cambodia. What they in fact say is that:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>If, indeed, postwar Cambodia is, as he [Lacouture] believes, similar to Nazi Germany, then his comment [&#8220;Faced with an enterprise as monstrous as the new Cambodian Government, should we see the main problem as one of determining exactly which person uttered an inhuman phrase, and whether the regime has murdered thousands of hundreds or thousands of wretched people?&#8221; &#8212; This is from a retraction Lacouture had made of his earlier claims.] is perhaps justified, though we may add that he has produced no evidence to support this judgement. But if postwar Cambodia is more similar to France after liberation, where many thousands of people were massacred within a few months under far less rigorous conditions than those left by the American war, then perhaps a rather different judgement is in order. That the latter conclusion may be more nearly correct is suggested by the analyses mentioned earlier.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>In other words, if the available evidence showed that massacres were only in the tens of thousands, then to James Donald anyone who has the honesty to say this is somehow a &#8220;denial&#8221; of them. (It should be noted that at the point in which Herman and Chomsky were writing, even Barron and Paul claimed only that executions numbered &#8220;100,000 or more&#8221;, not the two million Donald claims.)<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In fact, far from presenting any conclusions on the matter in their book review, Herman anad Chomsky say:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>We do not pretend to know where the truth lies amidst these sharply conflicting assessments.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>In short, there is no &#8220;denial&#8221; of atrocities in Cambodia; instead, there are questions about their scale and character. In fact, in 1978 Herman and Chomsky wrote in <em>PEHR<\/em> II that<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>in the case of Cambodia, there is no difficulty in documenting major atrocities and oppression, primarily from the reports of refugees<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>and that<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>the record of atrocities is substantial and often gruesome<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>and even that<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>When the facts are in, it may turn out that the more extreme condemnations were in fact correct.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>This &#8220;substantial and often gruesome&#8221; record was, however, greatly enhanced by the propaganda efforts of the U.S. media, as Herman and Chomsky demonstrate at excruciating length in <em>PEHR<\/em> II. This has, in fact, been the theme of all of Herman and Chomsky&#8217;s work on Cambodia.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>As for the &#8220;(often entirely imaginary) sources&#8221; which Donald refers to, no one who reads the full-length studies by Herman and Chomsky will have any great difficulty finding their sources, as they invariably give very copious citations (finding what the source is, I mean, as it is not, for example, very convenient to obtain a wire-service article that newspapers chose not to carry). For example, he claims that a news story by Richard Dudman does not exist (in &lt;5ktf3q$5s5$2@nntp2.ba.best.com&gt;, for example, he says: &#8220;Then I take it you will have no trouble finding the newspaper, date, and page number where, according to Chomsky, Richard Dudman denied that mass murder and terror took place in Cambodia immediately after the seizure of the capital.&#8221;); in fact, we find the following in the endnotes of <em>PEHR<\/em> II:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>87. Richard Dudman, &#8220;The Cambodian &#8216;People&#8217;s War&#8217;,&#8221; <em>Washington Post<\/em> (24 April 1975).<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>(We might also note that in the citation in question Herman and Chomsky were not in fact citing Dudman on the point Donald refers to, but on the matter of the American bombing of Cambodia in the early 70s. The reference was to his book <em>Forty Days with the Enemy<\/em> (H. Liveright, 1971), concerning time he spent as a captive of the Khmer Rouge.)<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In short, in this one sentence we see that Donald:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>1) Asked for information which was easily available to him, implying that he either does not know what he is talking about or is outright lying;<br>2) Flubbed the reference he made to Herman and Chomsky&#8217;s work, claiming that they had cited a source on one point when they had cited it on another;<br>3) Misrepresented the claim made by Herman and Chomsky about their source.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>This degree of inaccuracy is rather impressive.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>To move on. According to Donald:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>An example that comes very close to being an out and out lie is:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>such journals as the <em>Far Eastern Economic Review<\/em>, the London <em>Economist<\/em>, the <em>Melbourne Journal of Politics<\/em>, and others elsewhere, have provided analyses by highly qualified specialists who have studied the full range of evidence available, and who concluded that executions have numbered at most in the thousands; that these were localized in areas of limited Khmer Rouge influence and unusual peasant discontent, where brutal revenge killings were aggravated by the threat of starvation resulting from the American destruction and killing. These reports also emphasize both the extraordinary brutality on both sides during the civil war (provoked by the American attack) and repeated discoveries that massacre reports were false.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>Sounds very impressive, does it not? If such famous and entirely respectable magazines endorsed such claims about the Khmer Rouge then obviously we must take these outrageous sounding claims very seriously, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>If [sic] would not have sounded nearly as impressive, but it would have been a good deal more truthful, if Chomsky had instead written:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>Some academics that I am embarrassed to name have written letters to the <em>Economist<\/em> denying the crimes of the Khmer Rouge.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>Chomsky leads the reader to believe that a well informed person, someone who reads prestigious news magazines like the <em>Economist<\/em>, who reads magazines targeted primarily at the wealthy, someone affluent and cultured, would not believe the stuff about democide, that that business about democide was just lowbrow propaganda for the ignorant trailer trash masses. Chomsky uses the authority and prestige of these very reputable magazines to support his claims concerning Cambodia.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In actual fact of course the <em>Economist<\/em> and the <em>Far Eastern Economic Review<\/em> depicted the Khmer Rouge as brutal mass murderers who casually slaughtered and terrorized on a vast scale, who repeatedly committed huge massacres, and these reputable journals would have undoubtedly fired any reporter who wrote such outrageous lies as Chomsky pretends that they endorsed. The analyses &#8220;provided&#8221; by the Economist were letters to the editor by communists, not articles that these magazines lent their authority to.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>In <em>actual<\/em> fact, Herman and Chomsky <em>do<\/em> give all of these sources in their lengthier treatment of the same subject in <em>After the Cataclysm<\/em>, Volume II of <em>The Political Economy of Human Rights<\/em> [<em>PEHR<\/em> II]. There, far from vague references to &#8220;academics [Herman and Chomsky are] embarrassed to name&#8221;, we find full citations. The <em>Far Eastern Economic Review<\/em> published a series of articles by its Southeast Asia correspondent, Nayan Chanda (in particular, one in the May 1977 issue). He concluded that the number of executions was &#8220;possibly thousands&#8221;, not the much greater numbers being bandied about at the time. Far from being fired for this heresy, he has since become the Deputy Editor of the journal.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Nor was the work published in the London <em>Economist<\/em> that of a &#8220;communist&#8221;, although it is in fact a letter (and is also used by Nayan Chanda in his studies in <em>FEER<\/em>). In fact, far from being written by a communist, the letter (March 26, 1977) was written by W.J. Sampson, a statistician and economist, who had worked for the CIA-puppet government of Lon Nol (which the Khmer Rouge overthrew) in the office of central statistics, and had published several technical reports on the economy of Cambodia. He based his conclusions on interviews with refugees and other eyewitnesses. He concluded that slayings (executions) numbered &#8220;in the hundreds or thousands rather than in hundreds of thousands&#8221; with a much larger death toll from illness and starvation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>As for the <em>Melbourne Journal of Politics<\/em>, it published analyses by noted Cambodia scholar Ben Kiernan, whom James Donald has frequently cited as a credible source. Checking his later work in book form, we find that it is fully consistent with Herman and Chomsky&#8217;s use of it. Perhaps this explains why Kiernan has both aided Herman and Chomsky in their work on Cambodia, and come to their defense when others have made charges similar to those of James Donald.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Donald&#8217;s argument thus falls flat on its face when subjected to a cursory examination. The very worst &#8220;lie&#8221; he has found, is that Herman and Chomsky did not take care to specify that one reference to the London <em>Economist<\/em> was to a letter rather than an article &#8212; when they <em>did<\/em> take care to point this out when they gave a full citation of it in the very next paragraph of the same review! (Something Mr. Donald mysteriously fails to mention.)<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a id=\"shift\"><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" \/>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">James Donald Shifts his Ground<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" \/>\n\n\n\n<p>Since the above appeared Donald has revised his attempted essay to correct some of the factual errors he had made (and in a rare fit of honesty, admitted making). I will leave the material above as it is, in order to immortalize his idiocy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>As he posted in &lt;5tqi0a$a5q$1@nntp2.ba.best.com&gt;:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>Clore has very kindly drawn my attention to some inaccuracies in my article &#8220;Chomsky lies&#8221;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So I have made some revisions that I trust will meet his objections:<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>The revised portion now reads, after giving the quotation from Herman and Chomsky&#8217;s book review above:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>Sounds very impressive, does it not? If such famous and entirely respectable magazines endorsed such claims about the Khmer Rouge then obviously we must take these outrageous sounding claims very seriously, right? There must be some significant evidence, presented by these magazines, that shows or stronglys [sic] suggest that the refugees tales of terror were nonsense.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>As we have already seen, this is a ridiculous misrepresentation of what Herman and Chomsky said.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>Chomsky leads the reader to believe that a well informed person, someone who reads prestigious news magazines like the <em>Economist<\/em>, who reads magazines targeted primarily at the wealthy, someone affluent and cultured, would not believe the stuff about democide, that that business about democide was just lowbrow propaganda for the ignorant trailer trash masses. Chomsky uses the authority and prestige of these very reputable magazines to support his claims concerning Cambodia.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>There is of course no such evidence, and no such endorsement.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>In the case of <em>the Economist<\/em> [sic], Chomsky is not referring to an article in t<em>he Economist<\/em> [sic], but a letter replying to an entirely accurate article in <em>the Economist<\/em> [sic], thus this letter was indeed &#8220;made available&#8221; by the economist [sic], but it is entirely misleading to lead the reader to believe that it is supported by the the [sic] authority and respectability of the Economist [sic]. On the contrary, the authority and prestige of t<em>he Economist<\/em> [sic] is directly against Chomksy&#8217;s claims.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>It is hard to see how Herman and Chomsky could mislead the reader in this way, since they state in the very next paragraph of their review that they are referring to a letter and give the date of the issue it appeared in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>In the case of the <em>Far Easter<\/em> [sic] <em>Economic review<\/em> [sic], the review did indeed publish an article that said almost, but not quite, what Chomsy represents it has [sic] saying, just as <em>the Economist<\/em> [sic] almost, but not quite did what Chomsky leads the reader to believe it did. There are however two rather important differences.between [sic] Chomsky&#8217;s representation of the article, and the actual article.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>Nayan Chanda (<em>Far Eastern Economic Review<\/em> October 29 1976) does indeed doubt the refugees are telling the truth, (though other commentators, in the Review, for example in May 7, 76, and in September 7, 77 confidently support the refugees) but he makes no pretence of presenting any evidence contradicting their stories. He does indeed say &#8220;thousands&#8221;. But does not say &#8220;at most in the thousands&#8221;.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>In fact, it is James Donald who is here quoting out-of-context in order to misrepresent his source. In the article, Nayan Chanda estimates the number of killings as &#8220;possibly thousands&#8221;, presumably referring to the higher end of the range of possibility.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>On the contrary he covers himself against the possibility that the refugees were telling the truth by saying that &#8220;the numbers killed are impossible to calculate&#8221;. [sic] unlike Chomsky who leads us to believe that there is substantial evidence contradicting the stories of hundreds of thousands.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>And that devious devil was clever enough to include a quotation of this very phrase when he made use of Chanda&#8217;s article in <em>PEHR<\/em> II.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>As for these &#8220;stories of hundreds of thousands&#8221; even Barron and Paul, at the extreme, were only claiming 100,000 executions by the year after Chanda&#8217;s article appeared. Scholars now estimate the total executions in the period of 1975-78 in the range of 200-300,000, with most of them occurring in the period 1977-78. Far larger numbers also died from such causes as overwork, disease, and starvation, many of them because of Khmer Rouge policies.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>Chomsky presented the <em>Far Eastern Economic Review<\/em> as confidently denying the possibility that the killings were vastly higher, but Chanda specifically denies such knowledge and confidence.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>Chomsky misuses the authority of the <em>Far Eastern Economic Review<\/em> as he misused the authority of <em>the Economist<\/em> [sic], to support positions that they simply never supported, and to deny facts that they never denied.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>When we look back on Chanda&#8217;s article from nine months later, Chanda looks naive, but Chomsky looks like a liar.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>In fact, here is what Cambodia scholar Michael Vickery had to say about Chanda&#8217;s article, writing in his <em>Cambodia: 1975-1982<\/em> (South End Press 1984, pp. 59-60):<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p><em>FEER<\/em>&#8216;s big gun in the area of Cambodia reportage was of course Nayan Chanda &#8230; and Chanda&#8217;s work was indeed the most thoroughly researched and sensible of any journalist writing on the subject. But he, in particular, was extremely, and properly, circumspect on the question of atrocities.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In his article of October 29, 1976, he wrote that &#8220;most observers agree that the worst excesses of the reign of terror are over,&#8221; that &#8220;large-scale executions have apparently stopped, although sporadic killings continue.&#8221; He added that &#8220;part of the killing was the action of the have-nots against the haves,&#8221; inspired by a desire for revenge, and effects of a savage war. Moreover, he felt that the refugees, who were then coming mainly from isolated work sites in the three provinces bordering Thailand, &#8220;rarely have any information of value.&#8221;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>As we shall see below, all of that agrees very well with information elicited from questioning a large number of refugees in 1980; and the &#8220;Concerned Correspondents&#8221; who seem to think Chanda misread the evidence in not realizing that worse was to come are off the mark. Worse purges did begin in 1977, but nothing can be inferred from them about 1975-76, since there was a change of policies almost tantamount to a change of regime. Refugee reminiscences from nearly all parts of the country concur in depicting the last months of 1975 and 1976, after the immediate post-war massacres of Lon Nol military had ended, as a rather tolerable period.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>As for the impression that Herman and Chomsky give of the London <em>Economist<\/em> and the <em>Far Eastern Economic Review<\/em>, it should be noted that <em>PEHR<\/em> II includes fairly harsh criticism of other articles in both of these journals.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Donald also adds:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>I have not examined the reports in the considerably less famous and prestigious <em>Melbourne Journal of Politics<\/em>, but I assume I would encounter more of the same finely sliced words.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>In fact, this was an undergraduate political journal which published essays by Ben Kiernan. Even years after this period, Kiernan&#8217;s work still presents roughly the same picture that Herman and Chomsky do (<em>i.e.<\/em>, massacres of thousands of those associated with the old regime immediately after the revolution in 1975, followed by <em>relatively<\/em> few mass murders until the great purges of 1977-78).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a id=\"tune\"><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" \/>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">On Changing One&#8217;s Tune<br>(To be Politically Correct)<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" \/>\n\n\n\n<p>Mr. Donald has repeatedly made the claim that Chomsky abruptly changed his views in January, 1979, when Vietnam invaded Cambodia. For example, in his essay he says:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>I have chosen this work because most the [sic] viewpoints pressed in this work abruptly became politically incorrect and inconvenient in January 1979, when the good guys Vietnam went to war with the good guys Cambodia, necessitating an instant revision of who are the good guys, and hence the abrupt revision of such inconvenient bits of history as this one, and the many others documented by Sophal.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>This claim deserves examination. It derives from statements made &#8212; surprise, surprise &#8212; in 1978, when Chomsky addressed the United Nations, comparing the atrocities in Cambodia to those committed in East Timor by the Indonesians (reprinted in the anarcho-capitalist journal <em>Inquiry<\/em>; in another form, republished in <em>RESIST<\/em> and now collected in <em>Radical Priorities<\/em>). This comparison also appears, in a different form, in <em>PEHR<\/em>. If Chomsky wished to &#8220;deny&#8221; atrocities in Cambodia, he obviously could not make such a comparison.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>As for the supposed change in viewpoint, it should be pointed out that <em>PEHR<\/em> went to press in late January 1979, late enough for Herman and Donald to include a preface commenting on the Vietnamese invasion. The bulk of the book had obviously been written in 1978, and they do not seem to have found any need to change their viewpoint on the subject &#8212; despite events which supposedly necessitated &#8220;an instant revision of who are the good guys&#8221;.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In fact, the little material on the invasion that appears in the volume does not support Donald&#8217;s contentions at all.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Here is Herman and Chomsky attempting to &#8220;justify&#8221; the Vietnamese invasion:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>The Vietnamese invasion can be explained, but it cannot be justified.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>As far as their alleged support for this invasion, they speculate that it<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>may prove disastrous for Cambodia.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>In fact, it would have been strange for Herman and Chomsky to need such a revision: unlike Donald, they were fully aware that Vietnam and Cambodia had been at war since the earliest days of Khmer Rouge rule (and long before). Indeed, they note in <em>PEHR<\/em> II some of the major skirmishes that took place in 1975, and the renewal of greater hostilities in 1977.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In fact, in an interview on June 7, 1979, we find that Chomsky <em>still<\/em> has not changed his tune:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>For example, to take just Cambodia, my own feeling is that the effect of the Vietnamese invasion will be serious disaster, if not catastrophe, for Cambodia, which is already suffering enormously. (<em>Language and Politics<\/em>, p. 562)<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>In 1988, Herman and Chomsky updated their work on Cambodia in <em>Manufacturing Consent<\/em> (not to be confused with the subsequent movie and tie-in volume), including material on the Vietnamese invasion and its aftermath. They follow the Finnish Inquiry Commission in considering Cambodia under the Heng Samrin government as Phase III of the &#8220;Decade of the Genocide&#8221; &#8212; where the U.S. and Lon Nol bombing campaign is Phase I, and the Khmer Rouge&#8217;s regime is Phase II. Their picture of Phase III is basically the same as that of Phase II: there were undoubtedly atrocities, but their scale and character were exaggerated by the U.S. media (as opposed to Phase I, which the media very rarely mentioned and downplayed on the few occasions it did receive mention).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Here is what Herman and Chomsky have to say on the subject, where Donald claims that they now &#8220;demonize Pol Pot&#8221; and support the Vietnamese-installed government:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>[&#8230;] among people who are concerned about the people of Cambodia for themselves and not merely because of their value for propaganda exercises, few would question that &#8220;it is clear that life for the people is far better now than under Democratic Kampuchea [i.e., the Khmer Rouge regime],&#8221; [endnote cites Ben Kiernan&#8217;s Cambodian wife Chanthou Boua, &#8220;Observations of the Heng Samrin Government,&#8221; in Chandler and Kiernan, <em>Revolution and its Aftermath<\/em>] and some Cambodian specialists have suggested that the current regime compares favorably with any of its predecessors. Consistent opponents of aggression would have a moral basis for condemning the Vietnamese invasion, despite the rapidly escalating atrocities of 1977-78 and the murderous raids against Vietnam by Cambodian forces under Pol Pot&#8217;s rule.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>And in an endnote Herman and Chomsky add:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>Our own expressed view at the time was that &#8220;the Vietnamese invasion can be explained, but it cannot be justified&#8221; (<em>PEHR<\/em>, II, preface, xix). With the information that has since appeared about the Pol Pot terror in 1977-78 and the border attacks against Vietnam, that judgment might have to be qualified, even in terms of a rather restrictive interpretation of the right of self-defense under internation law.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>This is slightly different than the abrupt shift in &#8220;who are the good guys&#8221; that Donald claims took place in 1979.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Indeed, <em>PEHR<\/em> II records an interesting incident that occurred in 1978 &#8212; while Herman and Chomsky were supposedly supporters of the Khmer Rouge, according to James Donald &#8212; <em>Time<\/em> magazine was preparing an article which eventually appeared in the July 31, 1978 issue:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>One of us (Chomsky) was approached by <em>Time<\/em> in the preparation of this article in a transparent attempt to elicit a favorable comment from a &#8220;supporter of the Khmer Rouge.&#8221; Instead, <em>Time<\/em> was offered a (very partial) record of fabrications with regard to Cambodia for which <em>Time<\/em> and other journals are responsible.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>Oddly enough, <em>Time<\/em> made no use of this material.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a id=\"medbias\"><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" \/>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Media Bias<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" \/>\n\n\n\n<p>One of Mr. Donald&#8217;s key claims is that the U.S. media, far from displaying an overt bias in favor of the U.S. and against &#8220;Communist&#8221; regimes, is actually biased the other way. For example, in &lt;5rg28b$5ea$4@nntp2.ba.best.com&gt; he said that:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>allies of the US get approximately 5000 times as much publicity per murder as enemies of the US, as, of course, they should.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>And in &lt;33eef0ea.13182835@news.jps.net&gt; he claimed that:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>reports of human rights violations in Chile in 1976 outweighed reports of violations in Cambodia by ten to one, and reports of human rights violations in South Korea outweighed reports of North Korea by 90 to 1.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>The math here is very interesting (and in point of fact, the AIM chart shows about eight times as many stories on Chile as on Cambodia, not the ten times Donald claims). Treating this, we will leave aside the attempt to confine discussion to 1976; media coverage of Cambodia had been very extensive in 1975, after the revolution, and reached staggering proportions in 1977, after a lull in 1976. That aside, one somehow doubts that:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>1) <em>TV Guide<\/em> published ten articles by Pat Buchanan claiming that Chileans had been reduced to cannibilism and decrying the lack of media coverage given to atrocities in Chile, and another ten articles on Chile&#8217;s &#8220;auto-genocide&#8221; by Ernest Lefever.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>2) <em>Time<\/em> magazine published ten articles alleging that Chile was committing &#8220;genocide&#8221; against its own people, complete with fabricated admissions by government officials.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>3) <em>Wall Street Week<\/em> ran ten front-page horror stories on the atrocities in Chile.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>4) <em>Newsweek<\/em>, the <em>Washington Post<\/em>, <em>Time<\/em>, and <em>Paris Match<\/em> all published ten sets of faked atrocity photographs allegedly taken inside Chile but actually (by admission by the photographer) staged in another country.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>5) The <em>Christian Science Monitor<\/em> published ten editorials alleging that millions had been slain in Chile.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And most especially, one doubts that:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>6) <em>Reader&#8217;s Digest<\/em> published ten articles on human rights abuses in Chile, including numerous fabricated statements attributed to Khmer Rouge officials and others, based largely on State Department and other U.S. government handouts, which attributed 800,000 deaths caused by U.S. bombers to the supposed Chilean Communists, and which were released in expanded form as mass-marketed books complete with their long-exposed falsehoods intact.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The source for James Donald&#8217;s claim is not, as it so often is, hard to find in this case. It derives from a study by the right-wing propaganda group Accuracy in Media (AIM); Donald likes to reproduce a chart from it from its reproduction by Sophal Ear in his <a href=\"https:\/\/web.archive.org\/web\/20011031101726\/http:\/\/www-mcnair.berkeley.edu\/uga\/osl\/mcnair\/Sophal_Ear_canon.html\">essay<\/a> on the subject.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>To put it mildly, AIM has been exposed as a producer of falsehoods countless times, and there is little reason to consider any work they produce seriously. To do so, one would need both the original study and the material it was based on; however, even the chart reproduced by Sophal Ear gives enough to definitively discount it. It is quite evident from the choice of countries covered that the good scholars of AIM simply pied their results by choosing whatever they could force to fit their preconceived results. We do not see, for example, any inclusion of the Indonesian invasion of East Timor, which was taking place at about the same time, and with about the same number of people killed. This invasion was backed and supported by the United States, which supplied arms to the Indonesians and blocked attempts in the UN to do something about the invasion. Strangely enough, this example &#8212; which served as a test-case for the Propaganda Model in Herman and Chomsky&#8217;s <em>Political Economy of Human Rights<\/em>, because of these similarities and others &#8212; is not included in the chart which AIM produced. It is clearly and obviously dishonest to pretend to &#8220;test&#8221; Herman and Chomsky&#8217;s work by deliberately <em>excluding<\/em> the data they used and replacing it with other data in order to get the &#8220;right&#8221; result.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Now, according to James Donald,<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>allies of the US get approximately 5000 times as much publicity per murder as enemies of the US, as, of course, they should.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>This would place the media coverage of the Indonesian invasion of East Timor at approximately 5,000 times that of the Khmer Rouge. According to Donald, then, we should be able to compare the sixteen stories on Cambodia that AIM counts from the <em>New York Times<\/em>, the <em>Washington Post<\/em>, and the network news shows, with some 80,000 stories on East Timor. In fact, there was virtual silence on the matter in the mass media.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a id=\"gooks\"><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" \/>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Mere Gooks<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" \/>\n\n\n\n<p>Nor is this all of the misinformation which James Donald has perpetrated on the subject. He has been very busy on UseNet promulgating such nonsense. For example, in &lt;5jtudf$r5t$1@nntp2.ba.best.com&gt; he said:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>Those who knowing made that clearly untrue denial were and are liars, apologists for mass murder, and displayed a cheerful contempt for the lives of mere gooks. Note how Chomsky ignores all evidence by Asians and treats only statements by white people as credible.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>This is a serious charge: racism.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In fact, the works by Chomsky (or Herman and Chomsky) contain many quotations from Asian refugees and others. They simply do not say what Donald wants them to, and so, in Donaldthink, cannot exist. For example, on page 144 of <em>PEHR<\/em> II, they quote a Vietnamese refugee who escaped from Cambodia to Thailand in April 1976, after walking 350 miles through Cambodia in two months. When he heard stories of massacres in Cambodia, he said:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>I could not believe it. Walking across the country for two months I saw no sign of killing or mass extermination and nobody I spoke to told me of it. I still don&#8217;t believe it happened.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>Another example is Peang Sophi (<em>PEHR<\/em> II p. 211-13), who also tells a story that Donald doesn&#8217;t like: among other things, he says that shortly after the takeover, there were executions by Khmer Rouge soldiers, but that they ceased after receiving central orders to halt the slayings. These are far from the only examples that could be cited, but it suffices to show that Donald is simply wrong &#8212; whether because of conscious lying or some other reason.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In addition, Noam Chomsky worked for a time in Southeast Asia, interviewing Laotian refugees. It seems unlikely that he would do such a thing, if he considered them &#8220;mere gooks&#8221;.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It is, however, interesting to note the origin of the term &#8220;mere gooks&#8221;, and this information can in fact be found in one of the works by Herman and Chomsky in question. It derives from the Vietnam War. There, offenses such as murder of Vietnamese civilians were punished so lightly that military lawyers used the term &#8220;mere Gook rule&#8221; to describe this light treatment of offenders (<em>PEHR<\/em>, I.14: The Touch of Racism in U.S. Policy Toward Indochina). In face, Herman and Chomsky go on to point out:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>It is easier to ignore the destruction of &#8220;mere gooks&#8221; than non-gooks, and to become enraged over the killing of whites in Rhodesia as compared with mere Africans in Mozambique or Namibia.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><a id=\"apol\"><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" \/>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">James Donald:<br>Apologist for Mass Murder<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" \/>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them. (George Orwell, &#8220;Notes on Nationalism&#8221;)<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>By the logic (if one can call it that) of James Donald, anyone who questions the scale or character of atrocities is thereby an &#8220;apologist for mass murder, tyranny, and brutal inequalities of power&#8221; and even an active <em>supporter<\/em> of those atrocities. Let us see how Mr. Donald fares when submitted to his own logic.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In fact, it is very easy to find massacres and bloodbaths which Donald denies. A case in point is the bloodbath in East Timor, which Noam Chomsky and others have frequently compared to that in Cambodia. In &lt;33e36fd0.4618310@news.jps.net&gt; Donald said:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>The US has never supported the occupation and conquest of East Timor.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>In fact, there has been a great deal of support for the invasion of East Timor from the United States. Here is what Daniel Patrick Moynihan, who was the U.S.&#8217;s Ambassador to the United Nations at the time, has to say about it in his memoirs:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>The United States wished things to turn out as they did, and worked to bring this about. The Department of State desired that the United Nations prove utterly ineffective in whatever measures it undertook. This task was given to me, and I carried it forward with no inconsiderable success.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>He notes further that within a few weeks some 60,000 people had been killed, amounting to<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>10 percent of the population, almost the proportion of casualties experienced by the Soviet Union during the Second World War.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>Donald continues:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>When the US sold arms to Indonesia, these arms were sold on condition that they not be used in East Timor. There is no plausible evidence that these arms have been used in East Timor.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>But when Rep. Helen S. Meyner visited East Timor on an Indonesian guided tour, she asked the Commander of the Indonesian forces whether they had used U.S. weapons in the invasion. His answer was:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>Of course, these are the only weapons we have.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>In fact, this was an exaggeration. Only 90% of Indonesia&#8217;s weapons were made by the U.S. in that period.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Donald has further distorted the picture by claiming that the deaths in East Timor were due to famine. In reality, James Dunn (former consul to Portuguese Timor) testified at congressional hearing in 1977 that refugees consistently agreed that figures of 100,000 slain were credible. This figure was apart from deaths due to disease and the starvation brought on by Indonesian forces spraying crops with defoliants.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In fact, we find Mr. Donald denying and apologizing for mass murder even closer to the debate: he denies the genocidal attacks of the U.S. against Cambodia in the early 70s. In &lt;5jlb8u$kf8$1@nntp2.ba.best.com&gt; he tells us:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>By the way, Rummel estimates thirty five thousand for American bombing, and a couple of million for Pol Pot, (giving sources no better than those of Chomsky). However Rummel&#8217;s estimates seem reasonable as the Americans did not bomb urban areas, and did not specifically target villages and the Khmer Rouge eradicated very broad social classes entirely, whereas Chomsky&#8217;s alleged sources give figures radically different from those generally accepted at the time and subsequently confirmed by the post war inquests.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>But here is what Ben Kiernan, in Kiernan and Boua, <em>Peasants and Politics in Kampuchea: 1942-1981<\/em>, has to say on this subject:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>&#8220;aerial bombardments against the villagers have caused civilian loss on a large scale.&#8221; (from a State Department paper in 1970.)<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In 1973 the Pol Pot group gained the decisive &#8212; but not necessarily irreversible &#8212; upper hand. What were the events behind this? From February to August of that year, 257,465 tons of bombs fell on Kampuchea, 50% more than the total tonnage dropped on Japan throughout the Second World War.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Under the Freedom of Information Act, Shawcross was able to obtain a map of the U.S. bombing targets between January and August 1973; it reveals extremely intense bombardment of the heavily-populated areas of Kampuchea.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>Shawcross took the map to an embassy official. He cut out, to scale, a &#8220;box&#8221; made by a B-52 bombing raid. &#8212; &#8220;He found that virtually nowhere in central Cambodia could it be placed without &#8216;boxing&#8217; a village.&#8221;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>A Cambodian refugee reports that:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>Bombs fell on [his village] three to six times per day, killing over one thousand people, or nearly a third of the village population, in the three months.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>Kiernan further says:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>According to the map, by far the heaviest bombing was in the South-west Zone, where a huge block of densely-populated territory was carpet-bombed with amazing intensity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The number of Kampucheans killed and wounded during the bombardment is in the hundreds of thousands. Economic destruction was immense. According to a U.S. Senate sub-committee, the war created about 3,389,000 refugees out of the Kampuchean population of seven million.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And significantly, the difficulties of 1975-76 were more a result of the destruction of Kampuchea&#8217;s rural economy (primarily by American bombers) during the war, than of policies of the revolutionary government in these areas.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>The Finnish Inquiry Commission estimated 600,000 killed in this period. Michael Vickery puts the figure closer to 500,000. The CIA gives the range 600-700,000 wiped out by the U.S. and Lon Nol bombers; Francois Ponchaud (a major source on the later atrocities by the Khmer Rouge) places the figure as high as 800,000.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>But even this is not all. No, it turns out that Donald actually denies some of the real atrocities of the Khmer Rouge. In 1977-78, ironically enough, something similar to the Western propaganda about the era 1975-76 <em>did<\/em> take place. These are the massacres (especially a series in the eastern zone bordering Vietnam in mid-late 1978) which, according to such Cambodia scholars as Michael Vickery and Ben Kiernan, left the infamous pyramids of skulls. But let us look at what James Donald has to say on this subject.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In &lt;33e57262.5276677@news.jps.net&gt;:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>The pyramids of skulls primarily date from 1975.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>And in &lt;33e613d9.59538161@news.jps.net&gt;:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>The terror against the &#8220;new people&#8221;, especially intellectuals etc, was primarily in 1975.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>And in &lt;5jr2c7$fll$2@nntp2.ba.best.com&gt;:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>Nothing special happened in 1978.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>Indeed, something special did happen in 1978, and there are mountains of bones and piles of skulls to prove it. If James Donald is not, in fact, a supporter of these atrocities, he has certainly condemned himself as a hypocrite.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a id=\"faur\"><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" \/>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">L&#8217;affaire Faurisson<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" \/>\n\n\n\n<p>James Donald has repeatedly assailed Chomsky for his role in defending the free-speech rights of French Holocaust revisionist Robert Faurisson. His claims evaporate instantly when examined.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Donald has arrayed two main charges against Chomsky. The first runs as follows:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>Chomsky refers to Faurisson as a respected scholar, and leads the reader to expect that Faurisson&#8217;s &#8220;research&#8221; on the holocaust meets the usual standards of truthfulness and checkability that one expects of scholars.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>The source Donald has given for this is as follows:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>Chomsky said:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>Dr. Robert Faurisson has served as a respected professor of twentieth-century French literature and document criticism for over four years at the University of Lyon-2 in France. Since 1974 he has been conducting extensive historical research into the &#8220;Holocaust&#8221; question.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>This quotation, however, was not written by Chomsky at all. It is the opening passage of a petition for Faurisson&#8217;s free-speech rights which was signed by hundreds of scholars, including Chomsky. Even aside from that, it obviously doesn&#8217;t make the claims which Donald attempts to impute to Chomsky.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The second charge against Chomsky concerns his statement, in the 1979 essay &#8220;<a href=\"https:\/\/chomsky.info\/19801011\/\">Some Elementary Comments on the Rights of Freedom of Expression<\/a>&#8220;, that he had not seen any evidence that Faurisson was an anti-semite. In UseNet postings, Donald has used these exact terms at least four or five times:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>Faurisson not only claims in his writings that there was no mass murder of Jews in Nazi Germany, but also claims that Nazi germany was under grave threat from an international jewish conspiracy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Faurisson treats the mere fact that someone is a jew or somehow associated with jews as sufficient to discredit their testimony against the Nazis.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Now if Chomsky had said: &#8220;Other people reading Faurisson might very likely interpret his works as evidence of anti semitism, but I do not&#8221; he would have been speaking truthfully.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>But what he said, as usual, is very carefully phrased to grossly mislead the reader, but when interpreted legalistically by his fans, it does not actually constitute an outright lie.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>The charge vanishes away upon closer examination. Donald has been repeatedly challenged to produce the alleged passages by Faurisson, which both: (1) are examples of the two anti-semitic attitudes outlined above; and (2) Chomsky even <em>could<\/em> have seen at the time he made the statement that he had not seen such evidence. Donald has never presented anything resembling such evidence, nor has he made any attempt to. When we discover his source, it is easy to guess why. Donald was relying on Werner Cohn&#8217;s <em>Partners in Hate<\/em>, which is apparently the true source of most of Donald&#8217;s anti-Chomsky bunk.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>When Cohn makes this charge, however, unlike Donald, he attempts to back it up. Checking his references, it is easily seen that all of the Faurisson texts referred to date from 1985 or later. Now, it is obviously dishonest to claim Chomsky was lying because he said he had not seen something that would not be written until five or more years later. Nor is this the only lie which Cohn commits in his book. He claims that Chomsky had the French translation of <em>PEHR<\/em> published by La Vieille Taupe, a small press run by Fascists, neo-Nazis, and Holocaust revisionists, in order to &#8220;show solidarity&#8221; with them. In fact, the book was published by Albin-Michel, a mainstream commercial publisher.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a id=\"exchange\"><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" \/>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">An Interesting Exchange:<br>James Donald&#8217;s Style of Argument<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" \/>\n\n\n\n<p>These selections from a UseNet debate amply illustrate Donald&#8217;s typical debating tactics. He had said in &lt;5jhnf6$dls$1@nntp2.ba.best.com&gt; that:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>He [Chomsky] has a mass of verifiable citations to support uncontroversial claims, but amidst these well documented uncontroversial claims are crucial and controversial claims&#8211;that the Sandinista elections were free and fair,<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>To which I answered in &lt;861785789.31427@dejanews.com&gt;:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>First, the accuracy of Donald&#8217;s claim about Chomsky&#8217;s claim.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In Manufacturing Consent, the Nicaraguan election is compared to those of Guatemala and El Salvador (considered valid by the US government and perhaps by James Donald as well).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>They measure the elections against five essential conditions for a free election, with the following conclusions:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>1) Freedom of speech and assembly &#8220;Our conclusion is that the first basic condition of a free election was *partially* met in Nicaragua, but was not met at all in El Salvador and Guatemala.&#8221; (emphasis added)<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>2) Freedom of the press &#8220;Our conclusion is that the condition of freedom of the press &#8230; was clearly absent in El Salvador and Guatemala, and that it was *partially* met in Nicaragua.&#8221; (emphasis added)<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>3) Freedom of organization of intermediate groups (unions, political clubs, student and teacher organizations, etc) &#8220;We conclude that on the third basic condition for a free election, El Salvador and Guatemala did not qualify in the years 1984-85; Nicaragua did, *at least to a significant degree*.&#8221; (emphasis added)<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>4) Freedom to organize parties, field candidates, and campaign &#8220;We would conclude that the ability of candidates to qualify and run, and the range of options, was substantially greater in Nicaragua than in El Salvador and Guatemala.&#8221;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>5)Absence of state terror and climate of fear &#8220;Our conclusion is that the fifth condition for a free election was met in Nicaragua, but not in El Salvador and Guatemala. And our overall finding is that neither El Salvador nor Guatemala met _any_ of the five basic conditions of a free election, whereas Nicaragua met *some* [emphasis added] of them well, others to a lesser extent.&#8221;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>It can easily be seen that Chomsky has definite reservations about the Nicaraguan election.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>As to sources and citations, the major references for the Nicaraguan election include: _The Electoral Process in Nicaragua: Domestic and International Influences_, Report of the LASA Delegation to Observe the Nicaraguan General Election of November 4, 1984. LASA is the Latin American Studies Association, the major group of scholars studying Central America. Another is: _The Election in Nicaragua, November 1984_, by the Irish Inter-Parliamentary Delegation. These groups are both composed of independent observers of the election. (The US was offered the chance to send observers of its own, but refused.) Other major references include publications by many international human rights groups.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>These citations were not good enough for Donald, who in &lt;5jlb8u$kf8$1@nntp2.ba.best.com&gt; answered back:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>A little more specific please: How about a particular page number for a particular controversial and surprising claim?<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>Which I replied to in &lt;861881288.31060@dejanews.com&gt;:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>I&#8217;ve already given it for Cruz&#8217;s *choice* to not participate (though there&#8217;s much more in C&amp;H on this). I don&#8217;t know exactly what you&#8217;ll find &#8220;contreversial and surprising&#8221;, but I&#8217;ll take some guesses:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>LASA members freely spoke with citizens in Managua and elsewhere in Nicaragua, including many who argued against the current regime and did not feel at all intimidated, expressing their views on the street in front of everyone.<br>LASA Report, p. 27.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The opposition in Nicaragua held rallies unimpeded by the government.<br>LASA Report, p. 25.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The Nicaraguan election in 1984 included a broader spectrum of candidates than the U.S. election.<br>Michael Parenti, &#8220;Is Nicaragua More Democratic Than the United States?&#8221; _Covert Action Information Bulletin_ 26 (Summer 1986), pp. 48-52.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>There were few human-rights abuses by the Sandinistas during the election, and in fact fear in Nicaragua was directed at the U.S. and the contras rather than the government.<br>LASA Report, p. 28.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&#8220;No major political tendency in Nicaragua was denied access to the electoral process in 1984.&#8221;<br>LASA Report, p. 18.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The three Cruz-related parties that boycotted the opposition had no significant popular support, as shown by interviews with the citizenry.<br>Irish Inter-Party Parliamentary Delegation, _The Elections in Nicaragua, November 1984_, p. 7.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The voters were free to write-in candidates, including Cruz, who got no significant votes in the election (as expected).<br>Irish Delegation, p. 7.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>There were *two* contra-associated parties running freely in the election, as Cruz himself could have done.<br>LASA Report, p. 18.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The few disruptions of opposition events were minor and random (and at illegally held events).<br>LASA Report, p. 24.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Opposition parties were not spied upon by the government.<br>LASA Report, p. 27.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The government placed ads in the press asking citizens to respect the rights of all parties to hold rallies.<br>LASA Report, p. 24.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Well, I could sit here all night copying such things, but everyone should have gotten the idea by now. C&amp;H also carefully note the problems with the election, including restrictions on the press (although U.S. propaganda radio and TV-stations were allowed to remain on the air &#8212; Howard S. Frederick, &#8220;Electronic Penetration,&#8221; in Thomas S. Walker ed., _Reagan versus the Sandanistas_ (Boulder: Westview, 1987), pp. 123ff.). Donald&#8217;s claim that they consider the election unconditionally &#8220;free and fair&#8221; is a flat lie.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>To which Mr. Donald answered in &lt;5jtudf$r5t$1@nntp2.ba.best.com&gt;:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>I delete Dan Clore&#8217;s arguments on Nicaragua and the rest unanswered. I am not going to get into a history debate on issues where the left is still sticking by its history revision, so I will not answer these points.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>In other words, he not only changed the subject, but then refused to debate on the topic which he himself had just raised in order to avoid the issue that he himself had raised earlier!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a id=\"liar\"><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" \/>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Donald vs. Donald:<br>Wherein James Donald Exposes James Donald as a Liar<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>Oddly enough, if we want to show that James Donald is a liar, all we need to do is pay attention to his own posts on UseNet. One of them (&lt;5kujbv$afb$1@nntp2.ba.best.com&gt;) contains this little gem, which shows just exactly how honest Mr. Donald really is:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>Here is a posting of mine I pulled out of DejaNews from Thursday, Feb 13, from long before you participated in this thread.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>Correction, that posting was not from DejaNews but from my own records.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Tha posting does not appear in DejaNews for some reason.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>Now, you might think he&#8217;d know whether he drew the post from DejaNews or &#8220;his own records&#8221; without having to check the DejaNews archives for it, wouldn&#8217;t you?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a id=\"caught\"><\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" \/>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">James Donald &#8212; Caught Lying<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" \/>\n\n\n\n<p>Here is a concrete example of James Donald telling blatant, undeniable lies.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>This story told by these two newsposts is, truly, priceless. Read these two posts carefully and pay attention to the details to get the full extent of James Donald&#8217;s extraordinary mendacity. I give the two posts complete so that Donald cannot accuse me of taking things out of context. I&#8217;ll give some comments after the posts.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" \/>\n\n\n\n<p>Subject: Re: How Capitalism Creates Killing Fields<br>From: clore@columbia-center.org<br>Date: 1997\/08\/21<br>Message-Id: &lt;872145362.17226@dejanews.com&gt;<br>Newsgroups: talk.politics.libertarian, alt.society.anarchy, alt.fan.noam-chomsky, talk.politics.theory, alt.politics.socialism, alt.anarchism<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In article &lt;5tf9sp$eca$13@nntp2.ba.best.com&gt;,<br>jamesd@echeque.com (James A. Donald) wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>jamesd@echeque.com (James A. Donald) wrote:<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>All of your sources are suspiciously vague.<br>Some of them turn out to<br>be completely nonexistent when examined, like your Lenin sources,<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>clore@columbia-center.org wrote:<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>Okay, Mr. Donald, just exactly what do you mean by &#8220;nonexistent&#8221; here?<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>You claimed to quote Lenin referring to his system as &#8220;State Capitalism&#8221;.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>Which he was.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>In the quote you offered, Lenin was of course correctly<br>referring to the statist economic institutions of the Kaiser&#8217;s Germany as state capitalism<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>No, in another quote on the same site he referred to &#8220;Germany&#8217;s state capitalism&#8221;, referring to such government monopolies as the postal service. (This, to be fair, was not clear in the quote given there. I don&#8217;t have a source demonstrating the reference handy so I passed that one by.)<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>Since you always interpret Chomsky as saying something radically different<br>than what he plainly said, I assume you must have bizarre meaning in mind<br>for this word. When you first made the claim that my Lenin quotes were<br>&#8220;bogus&#8221;, I checked the URL of the article I had copy-and-posted them from,<br>in case I&#8217;d given the wrong one. &#8212; Nope, there they were.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>Blatant barefaced lie, as with so many of your posts, and in this case<br>a lie that anyone can easily check without having to skim through six<br>cubic feet of the Far Eastern Economic Review:<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>Sheeze, you poor fucking little baby, you have to skim through six cubic feet of FEER to find a reference you could have found in 30 seconds if you knew how to use an index. Then you have the nerve to whine about all the trouble it took you to find out Herman and Chomsky were telling the truth (which you can&#8217;t even admit, probably not even to yourself).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>The URL you posted was:<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/web.archive.org\/web\/20200313062221\/http:\/\/www.hrc.wmin.ac.uk\/guest\/radical\/ES-BOLSH.HTM\">http:\/\/www.hrc.wmin.ac.uk\/guest\/radical\/ES-BOLSH.HTM<\/a><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>I invite any reader who wonders which of us is telling the truth, the<br>one who supports and defend brutal tyranny, savage inequality of<br>power, and mass murder, or the one who opposes these things, to look<br>at that article and see who is telling the truth.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>1) This is pretty interesting rhetoric from someone who has been caught *stealing* from Herman and Chomsky, and denying and apologizing for the mass murders of hundreds of thousands or even millions by the US government and its allies such as Indonesia (&#8220;the evil socialists *made* them do it!&#8221;), is it not?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>2) Are you saying that the quotes I gave *are not* on that site? I certainly invite everyone to go to the site and do string searches for &#8220;state capitalism&#8221; and &#8220;state-capitalist&#8221; to see whether or not these following quotations appear on the site:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>This article is a further attempt to return to this social history to help develop a revolutionary politics that can break from the tragedies of 20th century socialism. It will show that Bolshevik policies were problematic from the start. In 1917 Lenin argued that, as private capitalism could not develop Russia, a revolutionary state would have to use &#8216;state capitalism&#8217; to build the prerequisites for the transition to communism. This approach was always likely to come into conflict with he working class. Then, as the revolution failed to spread outside ussia, the Bolsheviks imposed even more external discipline on workers, effectively abandoning Marx&#8217;s insistence on &#8220;the self-emancipation of the working class&#8221;.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>[&#8230;.]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Once in power the overriding concern of the Bolshevik leadership was the revival of industry to overcome a largely feudal crisis-ridden society. To this end they proposed to nationalise the largest monopolies, initially leaving the rest of industry under capitalist ownership combined with both government and workers&#8217; control. This was consistent with Lenin&#8217;s arguments before October that &#8220;socialism is merely state-capitalist monopoly _which is made to serve the interests of the whole people_ and has to that extent _ceased_ to be capitalist monopoly.&#8221;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>[&#8230;.]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Neither of these refers to Germany; they both refer to Lenin&#8217;s plans in 1917 for the Soviet Union. One assumes that he carried those plans out when he took control.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Apparently I was right: Donald was using a bizarre re-definition of &#8220;non-existent&#8221; &#8212; to him it seems to mean &#8220;existent, but able to be twisted into a desperate attempt at another meaning by someone who needs to take his thorazine&#8221;.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>These threads had been ridiculous by any standard; but Donald&#8217;s recent full-scale shift to Dadaistic Absurdism is almost unbelievable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>DADA IS NOT DEAD, DONALD!<br>WATCH YOUR OVERCOAT!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>See:<br><a href=\"#jamesd\">http:\/\/www.geocities.com\/SoHo\/9879\/jamesd.html<\/a><br>for more on James Donald&#8217;s Surrealist assault on reality.<\/p>\n\n\n<p>[my sigfile omitted]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" \/>\n\n\n\n<p>Subject: Re: How Capitalism Creates Killing Fields<br>From: jamesd@echeque.com (James A. Donald)<br>Date: 1997\/08\/21<br>Message-Id: &gt;5ti5rh$87k$3@nntp2.ba.best.com&lt;<br>Newsgroups: talk.politics.libertarian, alt.society.anarchy, alt.fan.noam-chomsky, talk.politics.theory, alt.politics.socialism, alt.anarchism<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>James A. Donald:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>All of your sources are suspiciously vague.<br>Some of them turn out to<br>be completely nonexistent when examined, like your Lenin sources,<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>clore@columbia-center.org wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>Okay, Mr. Donald, just exactly what do you mean by &#8220;nonexistent&#8221; here?<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>James A. Donald<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>You claimed to quote Lenin referring to his system as &#8220;State Capitalism&#8221;.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>clore@columbia-center.org wrote:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>Which he was.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>Liar: Why do you keep deleting the URL which you earlier claimed contained a quote from Lenin referring to his system as &#8220;state capitalism&#8221;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The URL that Clore keeps evasively deleting, in order to avoid people checking his sources, is:<br><a href=\"https:\/\/theanarchistlibrary.org\/library\/mark-kosman-beyond-kronstadt-the-bolsheviks-in-power\">http:\/\/www.hrc.wmin.ac.uk\/guest\/radical\/ES-BOLSH.HTM<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>In the quote you offered, Lenin was of course correctly<br>referring to the statist economic institutions of the Kaiser&#8217;s Germany<br>as state capitalism<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>No, in another quote on the same site he referred to &#8220;Germany&#8217;s state capitalism&#8221;<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>You earlier claimed the alleged citation was in the above URL, in fact you have made this claim several times.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>If it is somewhere on the site, it is not in the URL you gave, as can easily be proven by anyone simply loading the URL into their browser, and doing a search for &#8220;state capitalism&#8221;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The URL contains two references to state capitalism: One by the author, and one where Lenin admiringly describes the Kaiser&#8217;s Germany as practicing state capitalism, as indeed it was.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So if there is an actual quote by Lenin referring to his system as &#8220;state capitalism&#8221; (other than the NEP, which indeed was state capitalism and a major temporary retreat from socialism) give us this quote instead of page after page of ad hominem attacks claiming I am not worth of receiving an actual quote with source and date and page number.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>You are a habitual liar, and the reason you never give actual source and date and page number for your citations is because whenever anyone finds one of these citations, it is always subtly different from what you claimed it to be.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>[James Donald&#8217;s sigfile omitted]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" \/>\n\n\n\n<p>1) Note that Donald asks me why I &#8220;keep deleting the URL which you earlier claimed contained a quote from Lenin referring to his system as &#8220;state capitalism&#8221; and says that I keep &#8220;evasively deleting [the URL], in order to avoid people checking [my] sources&#8221;.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>As everyone can plainly see from the reproduction above of the article that Donald was replying to, I not only did <em>not<\/em> snip the URL, I invited every reader to check it to see if the quotes given were there or not. It was in fact <em>James A. Donald<\/em> who snipped it, and then claimed that <em>I<\/em> did it! In fact, a quick check on DejaNews shows that I never have deleted that URL in the entire thread (and I was the one who introduced it).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The fact that Donald snipped this URL himself (from <em>my<\/em> post) and then accused <em>me<\/em> of having done so proves that he is nothing but a blatant, barefaced liar. There just isn&#8217;t any other way for this to come about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I really can&#8217;t imagine who Donald thinks might be fooled by this tactic. Perhaps he is a masochist who enjoys being exposed as a liar and being shit on for his outrageous lies. If so, we should certainly oblige the poor man (to each according to his needs and all).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>2) On that URL, everyone can easily find the two quotes from it which I gave (search strings &#8220;state capitalism&#8221; and &#8220;state-capitalist&#8221;, as I said). The first quotes Lenin in 1917, describing his proposed system as &#8220;state capitalism&#8221; (the quotation marks, for anyone who &#8212; like James Donald &#8212; doesn&#8217;t know it, mean that it is Lenin&#8217;s term, not the author&#8217;s). The second quotes Lenin in 1917 using the term &#8220;state-capitalist monopoly&#8221;, &#8212; Donald apparently doesn&#8217;t recognize &#8220;state-capitalist&#8221; as the adjectival form of &#8220;state capitalism&#8221;. Neither of them refers to Germany at all. In a third quote, Lenin in 1918 referred to such German state monopolies as the postal service as &#8220;Germany&#8217;s state capitalism&#8221; &#8212; it is not a reference to the economic system as a whole.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>3) James Donald started this argument with the claim that Lenin was referring to the NEP when he coined the term &#8220;state capitalism&#8221; years before he conceived the NEP. He still hasn&#8217;t given us a single reference to indicate that Lenin <em>ever<\/em> referred to the NEP as &#8220;state capitalism&#8221; at all, at all. And I bet he never will.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>(And, he still hasn&#8217;t.)<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>4) James Donald whines and bitches about my not giving him sources precisely enough. I stopped doing this early in my arguments with him because he simply snipped them and then said that they didn&#8217;t exist (and this was for references he could easily have found himself). He obviously doesn&#8217;t really want them. For his part, it is almost impossible to get any source at all from Donald. It usually takes several requests, and on the rare occasions when he gives you anything at all to support his outlandish claims, it turns out that they either say nothing like what he claims they do (Ben Kiernan) or are just right-wing propaganda machines well-known for their inaccuracy (AIM). Ho hum.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>5) Donald moans and groans that I make ad hominem attacks against him. This is of course true: exposing someone as a liar is an ad hominem attack, and so is satirizing someone&#8217;s delusions (as Mencken said, a good belly laugh is worth a thousand syllogisms). Since Donald wanted to make the thread nothing but an excuse to bludgeon Chomsky with a blunt instrument, I haven&#8217;t eschewed turning it right around and beating Donald to death with his own bullshit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" \/>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Noam Chomsky:<br>The Lying Liar Who Always Lies<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>by Dan Clore<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>A New James Donald &#8212; Chomsky-Rant Parody<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>(Apologies to Eric Hughes whose own parody of Donald&#8217;s Chomsky-rants inspired this one.)<\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" \/>\n\n\n\n<p>I have written this about that lying liar Noam Chomsky to show that nothing Chomsky, that lying apologist for tyranny, mass murder, and brutal inequality of power says can be believed, because that lying liar is always lying, and to illustrate his methods of deceiving his readers.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>When that lying liar Chomsky lies, he does not say plainly in so many words &#8220;X is true&#8221;, instead he uses convoluted, indirect, and lawyer-like sentences that lead the reader to believe that X is true, and that Chomsky has presented a well documented case that X is true, whereas in fact that lying liar Chomsky, that lying apologist for tyranny, brutal inequality of power, and mass murder _has not actually said X at all_. That lying apologist for totalitarianism phrases things in such a way as to give the reader a false impression without actually stating the lie in so many words, so whenever one of his lies is exposed, that lying liar Chomsky&#8217;s lying fans lie &#8220;Ah, but Chomsky did not actually say X&#8221;. Even though any true-believing anarcho-capitalist who &#8212; like me &#8212; defends property rights by stealing from Herman and Chomsky, reading the work in dispute would get the impression, after just a few hours of mental squinting and having refused to take my thorazine for a couple weeks, that that lying liar Chomsky had somehow or other _meant_ to lie and say X even though he _didn&#8217;t_ say X. And that lying liar Chomsky probably just does this to make me look like a fool or a lunatic when I post that he&#8217;s lying by saying X, and his fans can then lie that he never said X and when I look again, I see that he _didn&#8217;t_ actually say X but not-X. That lying bastard. Whether he said X or didn&#8217;t say X, he damn well _meant_ X and was lying when he meant X whether he said X or not-X. That lying liar is always lying and he always lies.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>For example, that lying liar Chomsky did not actually say:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>Pol Pot was a real nice guy who never did anything but pat peasants on the back and help old ladies cross the streets in Phnom Penh while they dodged evil American capitalist imperialist racist bombs on their way to a picnic in the countryside where there was plenty of rice for everyone and no one ever had to work.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>Instead that lying liar lied:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>Colourless green ideas sleep furiously.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>Every single word in this sentence is a lie, spoken by that lying liar Noam Chomsky, who can never be believed because everything he says is a lie, and he is always lying. Even the very first word is a lie:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>Colourless<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>That lying liar Chomsky here wants to deceive the reader, and so he lies using the baldfaced lie that the brutal extremes of power he advocates are mild and moderate, when in fact they involve tyranny, totalitarianism, and mass murder on an enormous scale. And that lying liar does this because he&#8217;s a lying liar and always lies. Everything he says is a baldfaced, barefaced, boldfaced, blatant lie. Even when he&#8217;s telling the truth. That liar.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>green<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>Another lie. Green is the opposite of _red_, and Chomsky is here lying by using Newspeak and calling the Khmer Rouge &#8212; the _red_ Khmers &#8212; the opposite of the evil Radical Leftist Socialist Maoist Marxist Leninist Stalinist Communist Commies that they are. Instead of their brutal torture and death camps and killing fields and pyramids of skulls (which date from 1975, not from 1978, that is another Chomsky lie!), he lies, leading the reader to believe that they sat around smoking nice _green_ ganja like hippies at a love-in, laying back and grooving to Hendrix and making the peace sign. Nothing the lying scumbag says can be believed because he is a lying liar and is always lying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>ideas<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>This is also a lie. Chomsky is using Newspeak again: the opposite of ideas are things, and the opposite of things are people. Chomsky lies that he is not talking about those evil Communist Commies, but just about airy intellectual abstractions too hard for us uneducated slobs who get our information from Rush Limbaugh to understand. That lying bastard. I hate him more than I hate my third-grade teacher for giving me homework I couldn&#8217;t figure out.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>sleep<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>Yet another lie. Sleep is peaceful. The opposite of peace is war and violence. That is what Chomsky is _really_ talking about: the massive massacres made to make us ex-Maoists look moronic for having supported Pol Pot back before our conversion experiences made us worship markets and money. And that lying liar went the whole time without ever actually saying anything nice about Pol Pot, but instead by lying and telling lies by not lying but not telling the truth either but not really not telling the truth either. The lying scumbag. Nothing he says can be believed, whether it&#8217;s true or not. It&#8217;s all lies. Lies, I tell you, lies. He is lying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>furiously.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>More lies and nothing but lies and baldfaced lies and blatant, barefaced lies. Now Chomsky implicitly admits that the mass murdering mass murderers he supports commit mass murder, but he lies baldfaced with Newspeak to say that they do it out of anger and rage and excited emotions and because of provocation. Of course, they don&#8217;t do it in a rage at all: they do it out of sheer cold-blooded evil, because they are evil, evil, evil Communist Commies who cold-bloodedly massacre and mass murder massive numbers in their massive massacres and mass murders. And no one ever provoked the evil Communist Commies, that is another blatant, barefaced, baldfaced lie told by that lying liar Chomsky who lies baldfaced even when he&#8217;s telling the truth. Even when Capitalists kill Commies it&#8217;s always the Commies&#8217; own fault for being Commies, those lying baldfaced Communist Commie liars always _make_ the Capitalists do it just so they can blame them for it, those baldfaced lying liars and apologists for tyranny, mass murder, and brutal inequality of power.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Nothing Chomsky says can be believed.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Nothing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;<br>I have the right to misrepresent Chomsky&#8217;s work and then bash him and call him a liar based on my grotesque caricature of what he says, because of the kind of moronic and mendacious lunatic that I am. True newsposts derive from this right to lie, not from long books filled with complicated arguments I can&#8217;t understand and copious citations I can&#8217;t figure out.<br>James A. donald<\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" \/>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">UseNet Post<br>From Milan Rai&#8217;s <em>Chomsky&#8217;s Politics<\/em><\/h2>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" \/>\n\n\n\n<p>This is a post that I&#8217;ve made a number of times when Donald has once again raised his ridiculous attacks on Chomsky.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Considering James Donald&#8217;s recent attacks on Noam Chomsky, a few quotations from Milan Rai, _Chomsky&#8217;s Politics_ (Verso 1995) seem in order. They show that Donald&#8217;s claims are not only false, but that they have been made so many times that they are actually stereotypical. Specifically, the claim that Chomsky &#8220;denies&#8221; that the Khmer Rouge committed atrocities.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>(The following is from a discussion of Chomsky&#8217;s propaganda model of the mass media.)<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Just as one can compare media responses to individual victims, one can compare media behavior in the case of large-scale atrocities. According to the Propaganda Model, the mass media should treat atrocities differently according to how useful they are in propaganda terms.<br>[&#8230;]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The most famous nefarious bloodbath of the postwar era took place in Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge, between 1975 and 1978. It was met with a flow of outraged condemnation in the Western media in what Chomsky describes as &#8216;a barrage with few historical parallels, apart from wartime propaganda&#8217;. [endnote omitted] In December 1975, not that far away, Indonesia invaded East Timor, a neighboring country formally in the process of decolonization from Portugal, but which had declared its independence shortly before the invasion. It soon became clear that the Indonesian occupation was exacting a fearful toll on the East Timorese people. The reaction to the Indonesian massacres in the Western media was almost total silence. The contrast in media responses to these two bloodbaths was one of the central cases in _PEHR_ [Political Economy of Human Rights] and remains one of the most important tests of the Propaganda Model. Chomsky and Herman commented,<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>In the case of Cambodia reported atrocities have not only been eagerly seized upon by the Western media but also embellished by substantial fabrications &#8212; which, interestingly, persist even long after they are exposed. The case of Timor is radically different. The media have shown no interest in examining the atrocities of the Indonesian invaders, though even in absolute numbers these are on the same scale as those reported by sources of comparable credibility concerning Cambodia, and relative to the population, are many times as great. [endnote omitted] [Note that Donald has repeatedly claimed that Chomsky has never compared Cambodia and East Timor, let alone compared them on the scale of their atrocities! &#8212; DC]<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>It is important to bear in mind that the focus in _PEHR_ is on assessing the performance of the media &#8212; its handling of the evidence available at the time. The focus is not on judging the situation in Cambodia itself.<br>[&#8230;.]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>If Western propagandists had later proved to be accidentally correct in their estimates of Khmer Rouge killings, this would not mean that they had been honest. Chomsky once illustrated this point by noting that if he were to claim that Harvard&#8217;s Widener library was burning &#8212; without any evidence to this effect &#8212; he would not have been proved &#8216;honest&#8217; in retrospect if by some accident the library had indeed been in flames at the time of his remark. [endnote omitted] Accidental accuracy based on conscious lying is not the same as honesty. [Note that James Donald has no clue as to the distinction made here. &#8212; He has even claimed that the pyramids of skulls, which Chomsky and Herman describe as &#8220;horrifying&#8221;, and which date from 1978, prove that C was lying in 1977, when C&amp;H wrote about (media coverage of) the Khmer Rouge&#8217;s takeover in 1975. &#8211;DC]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Despite Chomsky and Herman&#8217;s repeated statements that they were not disputing the available evidence, only the way in which it was being handled, they were harshly attacked for allegedly doubting the facts of the Khmer Rouge massacres. [endnote: To be strictly accurate, Chomsky alone was criticized for his alleged doubts. In the storm of denunciation that followed their writings on Cambodia, Herman was strangely exempt from criticism. His co-authorship of the works in question was ignored by most critics. This tends to suggest that the main motive for the criticism was the desire to attack Chomsky for other reasons.] [Note that James Donald has also ignored Herman&#8217;s co-authorship. That he has displayed no knowledge of Chomsky&#8217;s work other than one twenty-year-old book review, of which Chomsky was not even sole author, and yet continues to make wide-ranging claims about Chomsky I believe also demonstrates that Donald has some other motive to attack Chomsky. &#8212; DC] [Examples of attacking articles omitted.] These and many other attacks were devoted to condemning precisely two pieces of writing by Chomsky and Herman: a review article in the _Nation_ [note: this is the only piece of C&#8217;s work Donald shows any evidence of having read. Since he continually cites it, you can read it at: <a href=\"https:\/\/chomsky.info\/19770625\/\">http:\/\/206.9.170.150\/archive\/articles\/7706-distortions.html<\/a> Donald frequently quotes from it out of context. For example, he has given a passage where C&amp;H quote someone else, and claimed that C didn&#8217;t give a reference for the citation, when in fact Donald had simply omitted the reference. Such is Donald&#8217;s level of honesty in attempting to debate this issue. &#8212; DC], and a single chapter in _After the Cataclysm_ [vol. 2 of _PEHR_].<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>There was a high level of dishonesty in the attacks on Chomsky. Critics charged that Chomsky &#8216;disbelieved&#8217; refugees&#8217; reports of atrocities in Cambodia [a favorite charge of Donald&#8217;s, like most of his charges, repeated ad nauseam. &#8212; DC], despite the fact that in both their essays on the subject Chomsky and Herman stated that Cambodian refugee reports should be &#8216;considered seriously&#8217;. [endnote omitted] As, they noted, should the reports of East Timorese refugees. The point of lying about Chomsky&#8217;s attitude towards Cambodian refugees is that this was a necessary component of the bigger lie that he denied the scale of the Khmer Rouge atrocities in Cambodia.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>There are various formulations of this allegation. Labedz claimed that in his 1977 _Nation_ article (Herman having disappeared [as he does in Donald&#8217;s accounts. &#8212; DC]), Chomsky concluded that,<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>The Cambodian &#8216;executions have numbered at most in thousands.&#8217; [sic] He presented his conclusion as based on &#8216;analysis by highly qualified specialists who have studied the full range of available evidence&#8217;, dismissing such first-hand studies as the book by Father Francois Ponchaud.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>The phrase &#8216;numbered at most in the thousands&#8217; appears in the following sentence in the original:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>such journals as the _Far Eastern Economic Review_, the London _Economist_, the _Melbourne Journal of Politics_, and others elsewhere, have provided analyses by highly qualified specialists who have studied the full range of evidence available, and who have concluded that executions have numbered at most in the thousands&#8230;.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>Chomsky was not presenting *his* conclusion &#8216;as based on analysis by highly qualified specialists&#8217;; he was presenting the conclusions of the specialists themselves, without comment. [Note that Donald consistently presents such statements, where C&amp;H give *someone else&#8217;s* conclusion, as C&#8217;s own conclusion. In addition, Donald gives these statements, presenting conclusions on the number who were *executed* in the *first months* after the Khmer Rouge takeover, as if they were estimates of the *total killed by all causes* (i.e. including famine, disease, etc) under the *entire reign* (1975-78) of Pol Pot. The extent of Donald&#8217;s distortions concerning these statements is staggering. &#8212; DC]<br>[&#8230;.]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>We have taken something of a detour from our discussion of the Propaganda Model. This is only to be expected, if the Propaganda Model is an accurate depiction of reality. Those who challenge the &#8216;Right to Lie&#8217;, as Chomsky describes it, can expect to be met with vilification and distortion. [As Donald treats C and his defenders. He claims that they are Stalinists, compares them to Holocaust Revisionists, claims they are racists, vomits crap about what&#8217;s PC and what isn&#8217;t &#8212; as if we&#8217;d care, etc etc etc. &#8212; DC] Such vilification campaigns succeed by making the accusation against the critics the topic of debate. [As we must tell Donald over and over and over again that we do not support Stalinist regimes, nor &#8212; unlike him &#8212; have we ever. C and myself, at least, are anarchists, and hence if we have any bias in dealing with such tyrants as Pol Pot, it should be in the other direction than the one Donald has repeatedly claimed. &#8212; DC] By forcing critics into an endless defence of their position, the propaganda system distracts attention from the substantive issues. [Note the importance of the last sentence. &#8212; DC]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>[In the next paragraph, Rai describes how Ponchaud&#8217;s book generated a review by Jean Lacouture, in which Lacouture, misreading Ponchaud, cited him as giving the number of killings as two million. Chomsky, having read Ponchaud, pointed out the mistake, and Lacouture issued a correction, stating that the figure given was in &#8220;the thousands&#8221; instead. As Rai says: &#8220;What is interesting is that the two million figure passed into official history, despite Lacouture&#8217;s correction.&#8221; &#8212; This is precisely the line repeated by James Donald. That Donald can believe that the initial slayings numbered in the millions or even the tens of millions (he has said repeatedly that C&#8217;s estimates &#8212; not really C&#8217;s, but let that pass here &#8212; are off by an order of a hundred or a thousand), but the total over the whole reign was just three million (which even Donald admits is the same as the total number of deaths in the period &#8212; one in which the State Department predicted a million deaths a year from starvation due to US bombing having destroyed their crops and croplands and killed 75% of the farm animals), reveals another problem with his claims.]<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>For the record, what C&amp;H consider the &#8220;most careful attempt to sort out the confused facts to date&#8221; gives estimates of 750,000 for &#8220;deaths in excess of normal and due to the specific conditions of DK [Khmer Rouge]&#8221;, with perhaps 200-300,000 outright executions. Since Donald claims that C underestimates the extent of the massacres by an order of a thousand, we arrive at the remarkable conclusion that Donald believes the Khmer Rouge killed 750,000,000 people. Quite an accomplishment, that! For the rest of us, the real figures are more than sufficient (far more) to condemn the Khmer Rouge as the mass murderers and pigs that they were.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>There has been enough in the recent threads on this topic to create another segment for &#8220;James Donald&#8217;s Reign of Error&#8221; (see: <a href=\"#blood\">http:\/\/www.geocities.com\/CapitolHill\/2374\/blood.html<\/a>) for anyone inclined to retrieve the posts in the DejaNews archives.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>(There doesn&#8217;t seem much point in that now, but Donald is so full of it that it could still easily be done with the leftovers.)<\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" \/>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Relevant Links<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" \/>\n\n\n\n<p>On the Chomsky-Cambodia Controversy<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&#8220;<a href=\"https:\/\/chomsky.info\/19770625\/\">Distortions at Fourth Hand<\/a>.&#8221; Herman and Chomsky&#8217;s original book review.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&#8220;<a href=\"http:\/\/www.jim.com\/jamesd\/chomsdis.htm\">Chomsky lies<\/a>.&#8221; James Donald&#8217;s attack on Chomsky, including Herman and Chomsky&#8217;s <em>stolen<\/em> book review.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&#8220;<a href=\"http:\/\/www-mitpress.mit.edu\/chomsky\/5\/6.html\">The Intellectual as Commissar<\/a>.&#8221; From Chapter 5 of <a href=\"https:\/\/direct.mit.edu\/books\/book\/5432\/Noam-ChomskyA-Life-of-Dissent\"><em>A Life of Dissent<\/em><\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/web.archive.org\/web\/19970128220550\/http:\/\/www.hks.net\/~cactus\/quotes\/Chomsky.critique.html\">Hughes on Donald on Chomsky<\/a>. A parody of James Donald&#8217;s rants.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&#8220;<a href=\"http:\/\/members.aol.com\/bsharp26\/cambodia\/media_1.html\">Evil Scholars???<\/a>.&#8221; Another UseNet debate on the subject.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&#8220;<a href=\"https:\/\/web.archive.org\/web\/19991003163941\/http:\/\/138.25.138.94\/acij\/reportage5\/R5Chom_photo.html\">Chomsky and the Fake Age Photo<\/a>.&#8221; An Australian newspaper went so far a to fake a photograph in order to indict Chomsky on these charges.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&#8220;<a href=\"https:\/\/web.archive.org\/web\/20040808065144\/http:\/\/chomsky.info\/onchomsky\/1985----.htm\">The Chorus and Cassandra<\/a>.&#8221; Christopher Hitchens deals with the controversy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&#8220;<a href=\"https:\/\/web.archive.org\/web\/20011031101726\/http:\/\/www-mcnair.berkeley.edu\/uga\/osl\/mcnair\/Sophal_Ear_canon.html\">The Khmer Rouge Canon: The Standard Total Academic View on Cambodia<\/a>.&#8221; An attempt by Sophal Ear to indict Chomsky and others; much more scholarly in appearance than Donald&#8217;s attempt, but it ultimately relies upon the same misrepresentations and distortions.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&#8220;<a href=\"https:\/\/thirdworldtraveler.com\/Kissinger\/PolPotKissinger_Herman.html\">Pol Pot and Kissinger: On War Criminality and Impunity<\/a>.&#8221; Recent article by Edward Herman that takes up the controversy, among other things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&#8220;<a href=\"https:\/\/znetwork.org\/zmagazine\/the-cambodia-controversy-by-michael-albert\/\">The Cambodia Controversy<\/a>.&#8221; Recent article by Michael Albert on the issue.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" \/>\n\n\n\n<p>Noam Chomsky Resources<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"http:\/\/web.mit.edu\/linguistics\/www\/chomsky.home.html\">Noam Chomsky&#8217;s Home Page<\/a>. Not much here but his snail-mail address (no e-mail address is given).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/web.archive.org\/web\/20131113014837\/http:\/\/www.zcommunications.org\/chomsky\/index.cfm\">The Noam Chomsky Archive<\/a>. Very large selection of texts.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/web.archive.org\/web\/19971212001647\/http:\/\/wwwdsp.ucd.ie\/~daragh\/chomsky.html\">The Necessary Illusions Page<\/a>. Good selection of texts.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/direct.mit.edu\/books\/book\/5432\/Noam-ChomskyA-Life-of-Dissent\"><em>A Life of Dissent<\/em><\/a>. Full-length biography on-line.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"http:\/\/www.synaptic.bc.ca\/ejournal\/chomsky.htm\">Noam Chomsky References<\/a>. Further sources.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" \/>\n\n\n\n<p>James Donald Resources<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"http:\/\/www.jim.com\/jamesd\/\">James&#8217;s Liberty File Collection Index<\/a>. A few things on Donald&#8217;s page &#8212; such as texts by Lysander Spooner &#8212; actually <em>do<\/em> deserve to be available, even though they are not of any very great value and crammed between various idiocies.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&#8220;<a href=\"http:\/\/www.jim.com\/jamesd\/confess.htm\">Confessions of an ex commie<\/a>.&#8221; Donald&#8217;s hilarious entry in the &#8220;god that failed&#8221; genre.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"#blood\">James Donald&#8217;s Reign of Error<\/a>. This isn&#8217;t the only thing Donald is wrong about&#8230;.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" \/>\n\n\n\n<p>Cambodia and Khmer Rouge Resources<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"http:\/\/www.yale.edu\/cgp\/\">The Cambodian Genocide Page<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/web.archive.org\/web\/19990209124747\/http:\/\/www.cybercambodia.com\/dachs\/killings\/killing.html\">Killing Field<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"http:\/\/www.princeton.edu\/~sophal\/serge\">The Cambodian Genocide Controvery File<\/a>. Compiled by Serge Thion.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&#8220;<a href=\"https:\/\/web.archive.org\/web\/19970801104114\/http:\/\/the-tech.mit.edu\/V109\/N36\/gwynn.36o.html\">US Involved in Cambodian Death<\/a>.&#8221; Article by Joel Gwynn.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>For what it&#8217;s worth, here is a chart giving the various estimates of Cambodia scholars for Khmer Rouge-related deaths.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-table\"><table class=\"has-fixed-layout\"><tbody><tr><td>Source.<\/td><td>Estimated violent deaths (executions, mass slayings, etc).<\/td><td>Estimated total deaths above and beyond normal mortality (including starvation, overwork, disease, etc.).<\/td><\/tr><tr><td>CIA demographic study<\/td><td>50-100,000<\/td><td>?<\/td><\/tr><tr><td>Carlyle Thayer<\/td><td>50-60,000<\/td><td>500-600,000<\/td><\/tr><tr><td>Finnish Inquiry Commission<\/td><td>75-150,000<\/td><td>1,000,000<\/td><\/tr><tr><td>Michaelf Vickery<\/td><td>200-300,000<\/td><td>750,000<\/td><\/tr><tr><td>Meng-Try Ea<\/td><td>100,000+<\/td><td>1,000,000<\/td><\/tr><tr><td>Ben Kiernan<\/td><td>?<\/td><td>1,500,000<\/td><\/tr><tr><td>David Chandler<\/td><td>200,000+<\/td><td>1,200,000+<\/td><\/tr><\/tbody><\/table><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p>As can easily be seen from this chart, estimates of deaths vary widely. The great discrepancy in figures for total deaths results largely from the (lack of) efforts made to separate Khmer Rouge-caused deaths from the total, which most scholars give as around 1,200,000 for the period. Several of the scholars simply give their estimate of the total deaths for the period as their figure for Khmer Rouge-caused deaths. This is obviously dishonest &#8212; surely <em>some<\/em> people would have died during the three-year period, even absent the Khmer Rouge.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" \/>\n\n\n\n<p>Have any comments or questions on this material?<br>Please inform me: clore@columbia-center.org<\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" \/>\n\n\n\n<p>The Official Dan Clore Homepage<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The Dan Clore <em>Necronomicon<\/em> Page<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>This is a collection of replies to propertarians from the late 1990s about the Spanish Revolution. They are mostly debunking claims and exposing lies. They have been combined into one page and any links updated or removed, otherwise they are the same.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[49],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-363","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-propertarians"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/anarchistfaq.org\/anarcho\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/363","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/anarchistfaq.org\/anarcho\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/anarchistfaq.org\/anarcho\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/anarchistfaq.org\/anarcho\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/anarchistfaq.org\/anarcho\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=363"}],"version-history":[{"count":1,"href":"https:\/\/anarchistfaq.org\/anarcho\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/363\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":364,"href":"https:\/\/anarchistfaq.org\/anarcho\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/363\/revisions\/364"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/anarchistfaq.org\/anarcho\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=363"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/anarchistfaq.org\/anarcho\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=363"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/anarchistfaq.org\/anarcho\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=363"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}